Episode 2: The Power of Culture

Former Senate majority leader Roger Moe and current rep Athena Hollins compare their experiences at the Capitol. As the legislative body grows more diverse, the culture shifts; some things get more difficult and other things don’t change at all.

0:00 Introduction
5:05 The culture of the Capitol
15:41 As a leader, have you had to make space for disruption in order to get things done?
23:39 Where have you had your biggest moments of revelation while learning how things get done?
32:50 Is the Capitol becoming more or less accessible over time?
37:35 Conclusion

Transcript

Alan Berks

Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Alan Berks.

Leah Cooper

 And I’m Leah Cooper. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota politics is very much like theater. 

Allow me to help you understand

The Capitol. I can show you

How power really works.

I’ve spent more time in these halls than anyone else.

I know all the ins and outs and quirks.

Alan Berks

 This episode we’ve brought together a relative newcomer to the capital with a longtime veteran.  Representative Athena Hollins began her first term in the middle of the pandemic.

Athena Hollins:

You couldn't forget about what was happening, you couldn't forget about the pandemic, because, you know, everybody was anxious in that space

Alan Berks:

By contrast Senator Roger Moe first came to work in the legislature 52 years ago.  

Roger Moe:

I kiddingly tell everybody that after 22 years as the leader of the Senate, that I should get an honorary psychology degree, because when you deal with personalities, it's such a human process, and I think that's part of what's what's complicated the process today is we've tried to dehumanize a very human process.

Relationships!

Alan Berks:

For some reason, it’s hard to remember when we’re all riled up about a specific important issue that the Capitol is made up of human beings. And, this episode is about the culture that is made by all of those people.

Leah Cooper

The very first book I read when we started research on this project was called Tribes on the Hill by Macalester Professor Jack Weatherford.  This book looked at the U.S. Congress the way an anthropologist would analyze the power dynamics of a village culture. The subtitle is Rituals and Realities, which I think says a lot. 

Alan Berks

The Capitol has particular customs, and it can be hard to navigate if you don’t understand them. 

Leah Cooper

We heard that over and over when we did interviews before the play, and we tried to make it central to the story we told. It can be little things like strange rules– for example, a security guard approaches a protester:

ANGELA

I have a right to be here. You can’t kick me out.

SECURITY GUARD

I don’t want to kick you out. You just can’t have a sign on a stick, don’tchaknow.

ANGELA

I can’t have a protest sign? Are you saying I can’t protest here?!

SECURITY GUARD

You can have a protest sign. You can’t have the stick.

Also, balloons with helium in them. I don’t make the rules.

Alan Berks:

Or it can be big things, like whether you’re allowed to enter the building at all. That’s why we created a central character in the play who never felt welcome inside until she actually gets a job there.

SHEILA

I’ve never actually been inside the Capitol building before.

I’ve been outside. Because every year on Martin Luther King Jr. Day I brought my daughter Angela down here to the rally on the steps so she could see that people do make a difference.

We’d park the car and stop at the Sears that used to be across the street and go to the bathroom. Cause I was sure the doors to the Capitol were locked. You think about these things when you have small children.

It was always so cold, and we’d all get bundled up - jumpers and moon boots. When Angela was little, she said the Capitol looked like a rubber ducky. All the people marching around it were the water, and it was looking out for us.

TOUR GUIDE

Here in Minnesota, we take pride in the fact that the doors to our state capitol are open.

SHEILA

I didn’t know that. No metal detectors?

The bathrooms are gorgeous!

No one told me. No one helped us feel welcome here.

Leah Cooper

When we do story circles before the play, we often ask people to tell us the myths that exist about their community, the things that people think are true that aren’t. And, in our very first story circle, one person said, “It’s a myth that the Capitol is inaccessible.” Because the doors are always open. And another person  said, “It’s a myth that the Capitol is accessible” because there’s more to ‘access’ than just whether the doors are locked or unlocked.

Alan Berks:

In your talk with Roger and Athena, they actually do address this issue of whether Minnesota government is as accessible as it should be.

Leah Cooper:

And they both know so much about the process that we don’t see –building coalitions, working across the aisle, the pressures, and the rituals and the rules - things the rest of us can only imagine. 

Alan Berks:

We’ll let them set the scene. The Capitol that Athena started working at felt uniquely different than it ever had before.

Athena Hollins: 

“Because when I first got there to the Capitol, it was basically empty. And it was this strange scenario to have this massive, gorgeous, imposing building with nobody in it. So it was very, very empty, very echoey, very quiet, and kind of foreboding, not just in the building itself, but also, with all of the implications, like you couldn't forget about what was happening, you couldn't forget about the pandemic, because, you know, everybody was anxious in that space. Being around people was anxiety provoking, and so, So in some ways, I have two experiences as well, which is the first one being in there during the pandemic, when it was so empty and foreboding. And the second one, I feel like I'm experiencing a whole new building this term. It's so bustling, and the number of people and protesters and my favorite gentleman who probably has some mental health issues, who reads from the Bible, every single week - 

Leah Cooper 

Oh, he’s back. 

Athena Hollins

Oh, yeah. With his hard hat on. It's such a lively and engaging place. All the students moving through there all the time. It's like a whole different building, and it kind of feels like I don't know, like a reflection of society in general, when we were sort of shut down for several years, and now you know, the noise, the the noise, the laughter, the yelling, just all of it, it feels alive. And it's, you know, for better and for worse, sometimes it's really irritating. You want a quiet space, and sometimes it's just glorious to see all those people involved and engaged.

Leah Cooper 

Thank you, I hadn't even thought about just how empty that space was inside. Roger, I think there's a line in the play that may have came from you, there's quite a few lines in the play that came from you actually. And, and one of them was, ‘don't forget, every day, you're making a culture, that the capital has a culture.’ And, you know, I think what I mean by culture, and what we tried to capture in the play was this sense that there are in front of the curtain rules, and behind the curtain rules, so to speak. You know, me thinking like a theater person. And, and that to, you have to, you have to navigate and find your way through that culture to find your place in it and find how to access power. And I'm wondering, as you each went through your careers, trying to find allies, trying to get things done, trying to find your place in all of it. Do you remember a time that you became aware of that culture and the layers to it? And how to navigate it? You know, while holding on to your sense of original purpose?

Roger Moe  

Well, let me just say that representative and I, we are from different generations. And so I know she will see this differently than I did, because… lLet me can I sort of set the stage for what I got? 

Leah Cooper

Please do, yes.

Roger Moe

It's 1971. And I'm the anomaly. I'm a young, white male. That's the only difference. I was a young, white male. Now, not all white males think alike. But obviously, it's a different generation. I was there when we elected the first woman, Nancy Brataas from Rochester, and get this - there were no women's bathrooms. They had to build a woman's bathroom in a storage closet just off the Senate chambers. So it's an entirely different time. And today, the legislature is the most diverse…It's just it’s entirely different. In terms of the culture of the of the process, Yes, there are things that you project and yes, there are things behind the curtain, but I always felt it and I focus more on my leadership years because that's where, you know, I really learned a lot about people and the process. And I always looked at my job as the leader of the Senate. And by the way, we have the largest State Senate in the nation. So we have more talent than any other state senate in the nation. That's the way I looked at it. And my job was to identify the talent. And not not just of my caucus, but of everybody. And how do I capitalize on that talent to the Senate's benefit? How do we make sure that we bring the best people to the table to get what it is we want, when we negotiate with the house and with the administration, and get what we thought was good public policy? And history will have to judge me on that, but I thought we had some pretty successful years. 

Leah Cooper: Thank you - Athena, what do you think?

Athena Hollins

I'm still figuring out the culture, I would say, being fairly new. And what I would say is that, you know, you said, you know, behind the curtain and in front of the curtain, and I would say there are multiple layers of curtains, is what I'm learning. You know, I have the privilege to be on the leadership team now as Majority Whip for my caucus. And that has been such an eye opening experience, because as much as you learn, as a member, when you get into leadership, it's even more learning sort of how the sausage is made. And what - I don't want to say deals because that makes it sound sketchy - but what negotiations are happening behind the curtain - the further curtain - as well as what what, the senator kind of mentioned that there's, there's so many nuances to this. And I think when people… the simplified version of like, this is how a bill is made. And this is how it gets passed into law. So simple. Compared to, you know, working across the aisle within your own body, working with the other body in the Senate, working with the administration, who could veto anything that you, that you put out there, working with the agencies that have to execute on the work that you're doing, and how you get pushback from those, there's just so many players in it. And I think that it's, it is a process that I wish average people knew more about, I wish they understood more of the nuance. Because, you know, I understand that feeling I was that person being like, why can't you get this done? And now that I'm here, I'm like, Oh, I see why we can't get this done. You know, even in the most ideal of circumstances, it's really just so much more complicated than the average person understands it to be.

Roger Moe  

The representative’s undergraduate degree is in psychology - it's a perfect degree to qualify you for the legislature, right? I kiddingly tell everybody that after 22 years as the leader of the Senate, that I should get an honorary psychology degree, because when you deal with personalities, and it's such a human process, and I think that's part of what's complicated the process today is we’ve tried to dehumanize a very human process. Politics is a social sport and if you desocialize it then you kind of end up with Rs and Ds and you don’t get the human side of it and I think that’s part of the problem that we face today.

Athena Hollins  

I think that's true. And I think what you're saying actually plays in perfectly to kind of what you were talking about with the diversity of the two bodies. You know, I had somebody, a chair recently come to me and say, Wow, we were talking about this issue in committee. And there were some people, members, who had experienced trauma around this. And I want to say it was around the foster care system. And it's one of the beautiful things and benefits of diversifying the body, but it also makes the process more complicated - 

Roger Moe

That’s exactly right.

Athena Hollins

Because they're bringing their lived experience to that. And there is complex feelings and understandings of those systems that we probably didn't have as much of, as you said, you know, in the 70s, when it was mostly older white men, and that's, that's beauty in that because they are bringing that experience to the benefit of all the people of Minnesota but it also makes it a much messier process. And I can say as Whip, it makes that psychology degree extra important, because there is a lot of psychology and social work that goes into just trying to hold a caucus together on a particular issue.

Roger Moe  

Great, great point. Like I said, when I started all white males, much of the work in the early part of the 70s, before we made changes was done behind closed doors. There were no Sunshine laws. Well - that's pretty easy to come to an agreement on something. Now, open the doors, do it in public, have Sunshine laws, and have the Governing Body increasingly reflect the society that they're governing, and all of those things add to making the process just a little more complicated. And, and today is probably probably the best reflection of that in Minnesota, because it's very diverse. Like I said, I was there when you have first senator elected was a woman now what there must be, I mean, maybe maybe not half yet - 

Athena Hollins

Close, I would say.

Roger Moe

But pretty close. So I mean, it's, it's changed so much for the better. But it gets more complicated, because you have more seats at the table, who have different opinions, who have, whose background brought them to view something a little bit different. It's challenging, but it's really kind of exciting. And we ought to pay attention to, because that's increasingly how our state's going to be.

Leah Cooper  

It's so interesting to hear you both talk about the value of psychology, in a process that is struggling between dehumanizing forces and a greater mess of humanity in the room, so to speak, right? And I think about disruptive forces, disruptive people, disruptive experiences, and Athena, your experience of going from a silent empty space to one filled with what can feel like disruption, you know, or your own caucus filled with emotions that can be disruptive? And I'm, I'm just curious if either of you and I and Roger, I'm sure you've experienced this as well in your time because it's always evolving. Can you think of a time when you as a leader had to really create space for disruption to get something done?

Athena Hollins 

Yeah, I can think of times I'm not supposed to talk about them though.

Leah Cooper  

Can you think of one you can talk about?

Athena Hollins 

You know, I will say that we've had several votes that we took, especially in the 2021-2022 session, with, George Floyd being recently killed, and then the civil unrest – there were several votes that had to be taken, that people felt really strongly about regarding funding for more National Guard to come into the cities to, I don't know, ‘create order or peace,’ or I'm not sure what the line was that we were using. But I know that those votes were really hard for people to take. And I think, the speaker Melissa Hortman, did a great job talking to everybody about what the goal is, why this funding was needed, but also allowing people to vote the way that their community and constituents dictated. Because I mean, Minnesota is a big state, right? I'm from Hawaii. So I'm used to a very small amount of space. And Minnesota is just gigantic comparatively. And I think that when you have a body that represents the entire giant state of Minnesota, there are so many varying opinions on how things should be handled. And for a lot of folks, bringing the National Guard into a situation that was already really painful and difficult, especially here in the cities, it was a very difficult vote to take. And I'll say from my own experience, I was getting pressure from the governor and from my own mayor, who was saying if you don't vote to give the governor state money, this money is going to come out of the city budget, because it's going to happen one way or the other. And he was very supportive, let me just say, kudos to Melvin Carter, he was very nice. But he was also saying like, it would be really helpful if you could give them state money for these National Guard's, so it doesn't come out of our budget. And I ultimately voted not with my caucus and not with what the governor wanted, because of the feedback I was getting from my community about the National Guard being present, and creating a more heightened, stressful, situation where they were already feeling stressed and feeling like they were in a militarized zone. And so that was a really difficult and it was hard to vote, not with my caucus, and to have that conversation with leadership about why I was unable to vote the way they wanted me to. But I do want to say that I think leadership did give people space in that situation to say, ‘we recognize that this isn't an easy choice to make, and that you have to do what's right for your community in this situation.’ I mean, I think because we came in, during the pandemic, there was a lot of unprecedented things that we were voting on that like nobody could have anticipated. And that was one of them. And I don't think it was disruption in the same way, like there weren't loud protests and things happening. But for the group of us that didn't vote with our own caucus, it was disruption. And I, I do think that that has echoes to this day in some of my relationships with members of my own caucus, members of the other side of the aisle, as well as relationships in the executive branch. So it's its own form of disruption in a way.

Leah Cooper 

That's a perfect story. 

Alan Berks

I really want to jump in here because that is a perfect story - it illustrates perfectly how many different angles and pressures are being put on elected officials by the caucus that they belong to.

Leah Cooper

Maybe we should explain what a caucus is. The word gets used a few different ways in politics, but in this case what Athena and Roger are talking about are all the other legislators in their party, who often try to strategically vote as a block.  

AB: Yes, and so it matters very much who is in that caucus because that will decide what that caucus stands for.  Now let’s go back to Roger Moe.

Roger Moe  

32 years I was in the legislature. We never faced an issue, as big an issue, as you just talked about with the death of George Floyd. Not Not even close. That was a very powerful time. And I can see where, from your perspective, how difficult that was, no question about it. So if I go back to my time. If your caucus is only kind of one geography, it reflects that geography. Out of 67 seats in the Senate, I had a caucus where I had at times 46, 48 seats. Now, that means I had seats in the center city, northern suburbs, western suburbs, eastern suburbs, southern suburbs, southern Minnesota, Western Minnesota, all of Northern Minnesota. I had in the caucus, the most liberal members, and the most conservative, more conservative than many of the Republicans at the time. And so the caucus itself had a way of homogenizing and finding kind of a common center ground, which was really a statewide perspective. So I had that advantage, or they don't have that advantage now, because unfortunately, now it's rural- urban. And that's a curse to the state, where we have, you know, kind of one party's more rural one party's more metropolitan. And so you end up with this polarization, you end up with this blaming big cities, if you're coming from the country, and it's just not healthy for the state. At least what I see today is not healthy for the long term, economic and cultural and civic viability of the state.

Leah Cooper  

Do you see that in your caucus, Athena?

Athena Hollins  

Yeah, I do. I mean, we have a couple of outliers, people who are in greater Minnesota, but not-

Roger Moe

Not many.

Athena Hollins

Not many. And I know that they often feel isolated, because of their perspective. And it does make it, it makes it difficult and I think it creates a tension that isn't necessary in this, in our space. So I mean, I am always talking to my Republican colleagues about the fact that I am from like a smaller town and that I understand what it feels like to have the major metropolitan area tell you what's right for your smaller town. Because it's it’s not a good feeling, right? I mean, I've experienced it growing up. And so I try to be really cognizant of that. But I do feel like it's a divide that makes it especially difficult in the legislature.

Leah Cooper  

Hm. Well, I'm curious, you both mentioned learning a lot. Roger, you mentioned having a mentor, and I know that the caucus is one area where learning happens. But I'm curious for each of you, where do you feel like you had your biggest moments of revelation about how to really get things done?

Roger Moe  

Well, I'm not sure if, if it was, you know, a bolt of lightning or the light went off over my head, I can't remember that. It seems to me it was a more subtle learning process. But I, you know when I'm asked now, as kind of an old dinosaur to speak to new legislators, I generally tell them this, listen, you're going to be overwhelmed, you're drinking out of a firehose at first - don't let that bother you, you know?. Focus on a couple of areas that you're passionate about, or that you're very knowledgeable about, or that your particular district has a particular interest in, and focus on those areas. And what you want to be in the legislature is you want to be the go-to person on an issue, where people say, “So and so knows this issue.” And if you become the go-to person, and and I'm saying that without party reflection, now, if people who become very knowledgeable about healthcare, the nuances of health care, or the tax policy or whatever it might be, you want to be the go-to person. And if you are, you, in fact, have power. That's just the way the process works. And so focus, be comfortable in the areas that you want to specialize on, in and on. And that in itself brings about a lot of influence. I led the place for 22 years, and my style of leadership was very much a consensus leadership. We had caucuses every week. I let people speak endlessly to the point where it got very painful at times, but if you let people at least give their opinion, that in itself means a lot to somebody. And I learned through that process that there's a very, very short question. That's really important, I think, and that is to ask somebody, what do you think? Because when you ask somebody “what do you think?” you're engaging them. You empower them. And what I discovered is all of my good ideas - if I asked people about them - I either found out they were either bad ideas, or they got improved by their suggestion. So, engaging people, being patient, all of that is part of it. And then, you have to earn people's trust. There's no question about that. But once you do, it's a lot easier to lead. Speaker Hortman has earned her caucus’ trust, and she's earned the Republicans’ trust. They, they, they know she's good. And so she can now lead. It's all part of the process.

Athena Hollins 

Yeah, I think that's so true. I, so your question is making me think about  - that's part of my role as Whip is to help the first term members adjust to their - the first time members in our caucus - adjust to their new position and their role. And so I get a lot of questions about, you know, how do I do this? Where do I fit in with this, you know, and advice like the Senator’s about, you know, finding something that you're good at and honing in on that and really doing a good job on it. It is important. But I feel like I am learning every single day. I don't have all the answers, and I haven't had an “aha” moment. There are things that I am getting better at. And there are things I'm trying that I have never tried before. And I'm just, giving it a shot, because I think that either it aligns with my values, or I think it's strategically a good idea. But you know I'm pretty new. So I don't think I've had like the crystallizing moment of I know what I'm doing. But you know an example I think to your point, Senator, I recently was carrying the conversion therapy bill. And which was one of the top priorities for our caucus and for the governor. And, you know, we have the majority, we have a trifecta, we could just, we could just pass it. But I decided instead to work across the aisle with Republicans, because I thought it was really important for people who are, you know, LGBTQ, to feel like, this is not a partisan issue. This is something that everybody can support, and that we can, you know, you can feel good about whoever's representing you that this is something that matters to them. And I spent a lot of time working across the aisle with a couple of specific members who were kind of key stakeholders in this issue, and that I knew that other members of their caucus would follow if we were able to get them on board. And so it was interesting, because trying something new in this bipartisan, you know, trying to be bipartisan on a controversial issue, frankly, a culture war issue. And I was told by members of my own caucus, that I was wasting my time, that they were lying to me, that they were going to just suck up all my time and not vote for the bill. But when the moment of truth came, I got 11 Republicans to vote on the floor in favor of banning conversion therapy, which, you know, was a learning, it was a learning moment for me, because it was like, okay, I can put in this time, and it is a risk. But if I think it's the right thing to do, ultimately, and we still have the votes to pass it so it's not like it's gonna not get across the finish line. But I think having that, building those relationships, and what it did was it built relationships. I mean, it builds consensus for the entire house, to get those couple of Republicans on board, then others followed suit. But it also built relationships across the aisle. And so now I have better relationships with people across the aisle, who are, you know, who come to me on issues and who trust me, when they bring up issues with my bill, And I'm like, No, really, this is why I'm doing it. And they say, Oh, I figure if you were just, you know, being paid by some industry, and I'm like, no, nobody pays me to do this. I'm doing this because it's important for my constituent’s safety or wellbeing or whatever it is. But I think those, you know, that was an experience. For me, that was a risk. But that ultimately paid off. And that I think, pays off into the future. And a lot of it has to do… like going back to that sort of culture idea, we're in the majority now, but who knows what happens in a year and a half. And to build relationships across the aisle, hopefully, folks will remember that I did that. If we are not in the majority, and we'll have a better working relationship, even if I end up in the minority. So I think a lot of what we do at the legislature, and this is what I'm trying to, I'm gonna come back around to the first termers that I'm talking to. You can look at it just like what can you get done What can you get done? But you also have to look at it as a long game. And I think to affect real change and systemic change takes a really long time. And a lot of the first termers are looking at this coming in at a trifecta as a Democratic trifecta. And they're like, well, we're just passing things left and right. And I'm like, Yeah, except we've been working on some of these things for decades, right? Restoring the vote for felons is something that has been worked on again and again and again for years. And right now, it looks easy. And I think that's what we're trying to make sure, that I'm trying to make sure that first timers understand - it hasn't been easy. This is something that we've worked hard to get consensus on and that's how we can get these bipartisan votes is because of all the work that came beforehand. So, you know, your bill might be a really good idea. But it might take several terms for it to actually get across the finish line. But if you believe in it, it's worth it to continue working that.

Roger Moe  

Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on Representative’s comments, and she's right on. And if I ever write a book, one of the chapters is “never sweep the table.” Yes, you have a trifecta, but you always want everybody to walk away from the table with something. You never sweep the table in this business, because it comes back to haunt you.

Leah Cooper

That sounds like really good advice

Athena Hollins  

It’s really good advice on life in general.

Leah Cooper  

Right? So one last question. So the play itself, of course, focuses on this fundamental question, who has access to affect change? And I'm curious from each of your perspectives, do you feel like it's becoming more or less accessible over time? And what's your own role in making it accessible for the regular citizen?

Roger Moe  

Well, I think, again, the pandemic put a big hiccup in us, of which we're, we're going to see how that all plays out yet. But I, I get a sense that people are kind of really eager to get back in the game. And let me say, Minnesota's government is so open, it is so accessible, compared to many other states. It is, it’s like an open book. I mean, we have a board or a commission for everything you can possibly imagine where citizens are appointed, and they get to participate. So, I mean, Minnesota is an open process. Fortunately, we've got a good vibrant press that cries out for transparency. So no, our process has been a good process. I think that probably where we fall down, is there are people who are kind of intimidated by it. They're not sure how the process works. I think we, as legislators, we have to do a better job of educating people about the process and how it is, it’s the people's house, it's the people's house, and you're entitled to be there and participate. It was built, it was built for people to come there with ideas, whether they're good or crazy. That's what it was built for.

Athena Hollins  

Yeah, I would agree in general. I mean, I think there are things that we are doing currently or working on that make it even more accessible. I think our general premise of having these small districts, having everything be open, I mean, all of our you know floor sessions are on public television, and we’ve got online, you can watch every committee hearing if you want to, and not only do you have to watch it live, but you can watch recordings of it. And the other things that we're doing that I think are important are language services. So we're starting to diversify what we have accessible in different languages. And I think that's really important and having like constituent services that are fluent in multiple languages so that we're able to communicate with folks who don't speak English as a first language. But then also one of the things that I really love that the pandemic did was this online component and zoom accessibility. And I know we are getting ready to redesign the State Office Building, which is where representatives have most of their committee hearings. And one of our goals is to make it more technologically friendly, because it's an old building, the Senate's got a new building, but the House has quite an old building. And so making it more technologically accessible, so that we can have testifiers, who don't have to leave where they are in Northern Minnesota, or farmers in Southern Minnesota, who I mean, we had testifiers, who showed up, they were farmers, and they were farming. And they were like, Okay, I'm here on my phone, let me show you my solar, you know, array as a farmer. And I think that's just in a state as large as Minnesota, I think that's really important to be able to have access to come to the Capitol, but also to have access, when you're not at the Capitol. And for us to be able to see those actual places, have those actual experiences, and to have a better sense of it, than we ever get to have when we're just sitting in a committee room, and everybody comes in in their suit and tie. That's not what your farmer is wearing. That is not what your utility worker is wearing on an average day. And so to be able to see a more realistic impression of how these people live. And what they're doing is, I think, really important, and I'm really looking forward to being able to do more of that.

Leah Cooper 

That sounds actually very humanizing, brings the capital out to the farm.

Athena Hollins  

Right. I mean, we do that for capital investment, right? Like we do capital investment tours for bonding, they get on a bus, and they drive all over the state of Minnesota to see all these different places where there are bonding requests. But we don't get to do that with our regular, with our other committees. And so I think being able to see, you know, human beings where they actually are is important. 

Alan Berks

Well, I know it’s part of a  politicians job to be charming but I have to admit that those two are effortlessly charming. 

Leah Cooper

Yep, charming and brilliant, with such a deep understanding of how this stuff works. It was so encouraging hearing Athena talk about improving access for everybody at the Capitol.

Alan Berks:

Especially because Roger talks about how accessible the Capitol is but then also admits that some people may be a little intimidated. Some people may be a lot of people. That’s not insignificant. We have a line in the play about how the state with the second largest racial disparities in the country probably shouldn’t be patting itself on the back.

Leah Cooper:

Of course the Capitol feels accessible to Roger. As I’m sure he’d admit, he’s an extrovert with all the confidence that comes from cultural privilege - that place is designed to work for people like him.

Alan Berks:

Although, to be fair, Minnesota does have better sunshine laws than many other states.

Leah Cooper:

There’s another line in the play about how you can count on one hand the Minnesota legislators who are actually corrupt.

Alan Berks:

Yes, in Minnesota, unlike in some other places you don’t get a lot of people deciding state government is where they should try to use public service to get themselves rich.

Leah Cooper:

 Which comes back to this question of culture. Roger talked about a consensus driven model where he let everyone talk.

Alan Berks:

And Athena talked about taking the time to work across the aisle. It was a bill that didn’t need Republican votes, but doing that may help with relationships in other situations at the Capitol in the future. 

Leah Cooper:

Roger said, “Never sweep the table. Everyone should always walk away with something.” Is that just these two legislators? Or is that a Minnesota philosophy? Is that a way forward out of these paralyzing partisan battles? To look for ways to get a little something for everyone? 

Alan Berks:

I suppose it depends on whether “a little” is enough for people? It’s complicated. In episode 3, we’ll introduce you to some of the people who work behind the curtain. 

Leah Cooper:

Our guests are Frank Kohlasch, longtime environmental analyst and Assistant Commissioner with the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency.  

Frank Kohlasch:

“Nonpartisan is not a term we use to describe ourselves. We don't describe ourselves as partisan either. We describe ourselves as we're an agency, we have legislatively directed authorities, and things that we are to do. And that's what we do, to the best of our ability. We try to balance as many perspectives as possible.”

Alan Berks:

and Sia Her, Executive Director of the Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans 

Sia Her:

You recognize your differences. But you also understand that you're there because you have that something in common. And that's that shared goal, to make sure that you each have what you need in order to live lives of dignity. 

Alan Berks:

You’ve been listening to Our House - I’m Alan Berks

Leah Cooper:

I’m Leah Cooper. “Our House'' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with additional audio support by Rachel Brees. Music was composed by Becky Dale - lyrics by Alan Berks and Becky Dale. For credits on the making and performing of the play and the original cast, visit our website at wlproductions.org

Alan Berks:

 The professional actors you heard in this episode were… Latanya Boone, Adam Whisner, Siddeeqah Shabazz, Antonio Duke and Kevin Fanshaw. 

Leah Cooper:

 Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible.

Alan Berks: Thanks for listening.

It’s personal but not.

You have to learn the culture.

Relationships

Cultivate the interests of those you want to alter

Relationships

They take years to build and seconds to destroy. [Relationships]

We are advocates and beggars. [Relationships]

They take years to build and seconds to destroy. [Relationships]

Build relationships and work it. [Relationships]

[Relationships]