Episode 5: The Power of Invisibility

Our guests shed light on the staff members that would rather, and sometimes need to be, invisible in order to get work done.  Guests: Jerry Krueger and Ned Rousmaniere

0:00 - Introductions
5:07 - How does your fundamental philosophy that the capitol is open and accessible bump up against some of the changed realities?
8:42 - Why might it be therapeutic for people at the capitol to share their stories? 
13:24 - If you were to write a play or movie about someone at the capitol, what character would you choose? 
18:56 How do you think government agency staff navigate that challenge of being somebody with their own points of view, their own identity, while working in a political environment? 
23:20 What are the moments of pride that keep people coming back? 
26:53 If I got a job at the capitol, are there things you would warn me about or tell me to do? 30:52 Do you have a favorite space in the building? 

Transcript

   [show music]

Leah Cooper

Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Leah Cooper.

Alan Berks

And I’m Alan Berks. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota government is very much like theater. 

Leah Cooper

There’s a carefully choreographed show we see in public and then there are thousands of people who work behind the scenes to make everything actually happen.

CIVIL SERVANT and EXPERT/CHORUS

We are non-partisan

We work for everyone

We stay in the background 

where truth can be found.

Leah Cooper

This is an episode about people who like to be invisible.

Alan Berks

We almost couldn’t get anyone to be on it. That’s how much they prefer invisibility.

Leah Cooper

Which did not actually surprise us. Uncovering untold and often ignored or marginalized stories is what Wonderlust does. I mean we know how hard it is to get people to talk who have good reason to be mistrustful of attention.

Alan Berks

Remember when we first told the one person we knew at the Capitol that we wanted to make this play? 

Leah Cooper

Mhm. 

Alan Berks

She laughed at us! She said no one would talk to us.

Leah Cooper

Because people who are behind the scenes are there for a reason, and when they get attention, it’s generally not good. Legislators like Roger Moe and Athena Hollins are comfortable being the face of the system. But we wanted to hear the backstage story.

Alan Berks

Eventually, after hanging around long enough, we did get people to share their stories with us. Like this monologue from the play that came directly from someone who had worked her whole life in support positions in the executive branch.

CIVIL SERVANT

I worked in Materials Management, when the 35W Bridge collapsed. It was about 6pm when that happened and it was incredible the network of people who had to come together. They had to get immediate approval to secure the site, to get the right people in there. Immediately. The phone calls that went out. The emergency declarations that were made with respect to procurement. Immediately. Folks who had to come in – with contracts – to test the air and do other disaster recovery type services, necessary services-- a lot of people in our division that nobody thinks about--all the way through the construction of the new bridge. It was a big deal and a lot of work.

In an awful situation

You want people who are patient

Who will work together all hands on deck

CHORUS

To build a bridge of hope and respect

For you..

ALL

That’s what non-partisan means.

EXPERT

Crisis happens everyday and government deals with it. You may not notice if the crisis doesn’t affect you but it affects a lot of people. I guarantee it. That’s what non-partisan staff do.

Alan Berks

We learned about the heroism of small things. How small things add up to a society that cares for its citizens.

Leah Cooper

One of those caring people is actually one of our guests on this episode. In a way, he’s been on this journey from the very beginning with us. 

Jerry Krueger

Yeah, so for me, it was fall of 2015. And I used to answer the phone line that people call the reserve space at the Capitol. And Alan called. And he said, I'm from this group called Wonderlust productions, and we want to do a play at the Capitol about what goes on at the Capitol. We chatted a little bit and he was just kind of gauging could this happen? And I said yes. And after I hung up the phone, I thought to myself, What have I gotten us into? I just, especially at the time, the Capitol was undergoing its major renovation. I was still very new to the job, and it was just mind blowing to me, like, can we make this happen? But, you know, it's public space at the Capitol, so we will find a way to make it happen.

Alan Berks

That’s Jerry Krueger. He started working at the Capitol ten years ago, as a second shift janitor and now is a project coordinator. The Capitol represents Minnesota as well as it does partly because people like Jerry choose to take pride in their work.

Leah Cooper

Also joining us is Ned Rousmaniere who recently retired from working at the Capitol. In his role working with the employee assistance program, he intersected with a lot of the people who we want to highlight in this episode. He also was in the play:

Ned Rousmaniere

 Personally, for me, but then also, I felt, for state government, that it was really a wonderful opportunity for people to see the people who are not seen publicly in state government, and it was fun to be part of that project. Really fun.

Alan Berks 

Because we have a long history with both Jerry and Ned, we asked them to update us on what has changed at the Capitol since we last gathered stories there.

Leah Cooper  

So I'm curious, there were lines in the play, reflecting our experience, which is that it's really the doors open, you could just walk in and, and back then you could even… we had a reference in the play to a real story where somebody walked in with a machete in their hand. And, and that was technically actually okay. And obviously, things have changed quite a bit since then. And I wonder, how does your fundamental philosophy that it's open and accessible, how does that bump up against some of the changed realities?

Jerry Krueger 

I don't actually think it's changed all that much, as people might think. I mean, obviously, we went through the George Floyd protests, and we had the big fence around the Capitol.  

Ned Rousmaniere

COVID shut down the Capitol complex, which was really bizarre. And, you know, this is supposed to be this public space, but it was secured. Everything was kind of in lockdown, for two different reasons. 

Leah Cooper 

Were both of you still showing up in the building when it was shut down to the public?

Ned Rousmaniere

I was not, no, I've been working from home ever since March of 2020.

Leah Cooper

What about you, Jerry?

Jerry Krueger 

I've been there the whole time.

Leah Cooper 

What's it been like? It seems like it would be kind of sad and eerie? 

Jerry Krueger  18:51

Yeah. Sad and eerie are good words for it. Yes, both, you know, that initial COVID shutdown when everybody just sort of emptied out. And just walking around the complex in summertime, when you should be seeing 10, 15 school buses, circled around MLK, with, streams of kids, you know, running up the Capitol steps and all those sounds of the business of state government going around, and that was just all suddenly silent. I really was very eerie and strange and just odd. You know, and, you know, we were there as facilities, you know, kind of keeping everything going. And it really was strange.

Ned Rousmaniere

And It still is, I mean, we're we're building we're now coming in twice. Twice a week. I'm coming in twice a week for the last month and, but there's - I'm in Centennial office building, which I think capacity may be 400, 500 employees, maybe. And it appears to me that there's never more than 100 people in there at a time now. And last time I was there, I didn't see a single person my whole day there. It almost shifts my thinking a little bit in terms of - I'm realizing, as we're talking about this, like, what is government? You know, it's this thing that's being administered from people's kitchens and living rooms and basements, you know, their family rooms, that's how government is now? I mean 80% of it is sort of is like that. There's no reason for people to be coming in to work anymore, to congregate on a regular basis. It is an odd thing. I don't know what the what the implications will be what how it might, how it might move government to operate 10 or 20 years from now. I don't know, I can't even imagine that right now.

Leah Cooper  

It seems to me from what we heard when we talked to people who work there that seeing the school buses come and the kids stream in, seeing the protesters, seeing the rallies, is part of what motivates people in the work.

Ned Rousmaniere

And that's still happening. I mean, that's resumed. The Capitol is kind of back to operating the way it should, with legislators and visitors and kids and all that kind of stuff. But the rest of the executive branch is operating very differently than it has in the past. And I just don't know what that's going to… I don't assume that that's going to make a difference in the future. But I'm kind of curious about it. 

Leah Cooper 

I recall that when we first started talking with you, while making the play, you were excited to get other state workers to come to story circles. And you said, I’m  paraphrasing, you thought it might even be therapeutic for people to share their story and to know their story would be heard. Can you say more about that?

Ned Rousmaniere

I was surprised by how reluctant people were to get involved. I was thinking about the ground maintenance workers specifically. The people who keep that place beautiful, the people who maintain the State Office Building where the House Representatives sit and take care of it and make the bathrooms beautiful everywhere. I was really wanting those people. And I don't know how many of those folks came forward, but I went to one of the leaders of that group and he couldn't really comprehend what I was even asking for. State employees are so… I learned myself just how self conscious and how uncomfortable they are about getting attention. 

Leah Cooper  

Jerry, were there things in the play for you that resonated as somebody who works behind the scenes?

Jerry Krueger  

I think what really resonated to me was just how the play captured so many pieces of state government. There's the drama with the governor and the legislators and all that going on. And, but then outside of that there's all the nonpartisan state agencies that are just trying to go about and do their day to day activities, you know, sort of outside of that. Just this sort of melody of all of those pieces kind of working together. Because I think a lot of people deal with the state in a very piecemeal way, you know, they either, like, they think of the state as just their legislator and Governor and the political side of it, or because of a particular line of work there, and they work with the state agency that regulates that kind of work. And it's just such a huge kaleidoscope of what government does, and you captured a lot of little pieces of that that aren't normally seen together.

LOBBYIST

Just when I think we’ve successfully lined up the support for my client’s bill, the nonpartisan staff will come in with questions and concerns and slow down the entire process.

LEGISLATOR

Exactly! I can’t get a road built for my district without years of nonsense—

EXPERT

Nonsense? You think it's simple? What about the environmental impact? 

CIVIL SERVANT

What if it will harm important historical sites? Whose land will the road be built on?

Will it cut through historically marginalized communities? Will the vendors be selected in a fair process?

EXPERT

In my agency, we have to come up with a way forward that balances all the competing interests—regardless of who is the governor. If it’s a pro-business or pro-automobile governor, we go a little one way. But we don’t completely ignore the other side of the issue. Cause the parties will shift! And the state will still be full of different people.

Leah Cooper  

It's funny, Ned, what you said about people's reluctance to share, we encountered that a lot, in almost every… the more behind the scenes, the department, the more reluctant people were to share. It actually, it's funny - we mentioned the Veterans Play Project - it reminded me of talking to veterans, because they're, it's also part of their culture not to center themselves. They're part of a team. There's a mission. There's a strong culture not to aggrandize their own role in it. And I found a really similar quality with state workers, especially behind the scenes. And that was ironic, right? The people who, whose work seems the most central to it, is the most unseen. And these are the same people who are the most shy about sharing or the most nervous about how sharing might be perceived.

Ned  Rousmaniere

Exactly. I think there's just fear that… Do you remember the Eye Team? Do people know what I mean by the Eye Team? The Eye Team was an investigatory team on KSTP, one of the TV stations. And there's this fear that you're going to say something that's going to draw the attention of the Eye Team. Now suddenly there's going to be cameras at your agency because you said something that you didn't realize was sensitive and so there's some of that reluctance. And state government is filled - I mean I’d say if you're doing like a Myers Briggs profile of state government –  you'd find a lot of people who describe themselves as introverted. They prefer to be studying things, solving problems, then speaking out loud about them.

Leah Cooper  

If either of you were ever going to write play about the capital, or make a movie, and you wanted to make a central character who is somebody, maybe you admire behind the scenes, who nobody knows about who does something really special? Are there particular roles or particular characters that come to mind that you just wish people knew about?

Jerry Krueger  

I think it would be really hard to write a play like that about such a person. Because those types of people that I'm thinking about, do work that would be like watching paint dry, to be perfectly honest. But it's all very valid, and necessary work. But I don't know how you could write a story about it. Which is part of what makes it great is that there is somebody out there who in some cases, could spend 30 or 40 years doing that job. And nobody knows who they are. And I think that mystery itself is part of what makes what we do great at the state is that, that nobody will ever know. The mystery itself, I think, is really, really the most interesting part. And, you know, maybe it's better that way.

OSCAR (quietly, cautiously, a stage whisper)

Excuse me.

SHEILA

Ahhh! You scared me. 

OSCAR

You see me?

SHEILA

Of course I see you.

OSCAR

If you can see me, then something must be wrong. . . something’s different today. . .something’s strange.

SHEILA

Who are you?

OSCAR

I work in the office of the Revisor of Statutes.

SHEILA

You ready the statues?

OSCAR (whisper)

No. Revisor of statutes

SHEILA

You receive cashews?

OSCAR

No!

CHORUS (popping head in)

Revisor of Statutes!

SHEILA

O. That’s a name. What do you do?

OSCAR

We draft the legislation.

CHORUS 

They draft the bills.

                          The bills.

                                        The bills.

The bills.

OSCAR

People

want to believe that their

legislators know

Ev’rything      (beat) about

Ev’rything that happens here

ADVOCATE

(Beat)   People do!

OSCAR (and ADVOCATE and LOBBYIST?)

But!                 (beat) in re-

ality most legislators

only know a little bit

(beat) about one or 

two of the issues 

closest to them.

LOBBYIST

It’s true.

OSCAR

                      (beat) And they

certainly don’t under-

stand the intersections with

other laws already on the

books

LEGISLATOR

Well. Hey. The state’s more than 150 years old.

OSCAR

     (beat) So the

legislators tell us what they

want in a bill, and we

write it.

SHEILA

How come you’re singing?

OSCAR 

Because

CHORUS

We are the

Keepers of the Rule of

Law.

OSCAR

We’re kind of magic. Invisible but essential to making the process work. 

Ned Rousmaniere

This story will be told eventually, it's about the pandemic, and how government responded to the pandemic may not be the main point of that movie or that novel, but it will be an important part of it. And the drama, real drama, about: here's what the science says. But here's here's a state population and business owners, how do we negotiate what the science says, with a population, with business needs? With the need to generate tax revenue? How do we balance that? And there's some there are going to be eventually some really powerful stories about very, very difficult decisions that had to be made. Where the invisible state employee population, in this case, scientists, epidemiologists, people who study population health, where their story has to somehow be coordinated with a political agenda that isn't going to alienate a restaurant owner in Crookston, and their community. That will happen sometime. And I'm going to pay close attention because that was a very difficult, just an incredibly difficult time, I'm sure for a bunch of people.

Leah Cooper  

Well this actually makes me think of something else I wanted to ask you, Ned. We, actually had a hard time finding folks from behind the scenes to come be guests on the podcast. You know, just like it was not always easy to get them to come share in story circles. And it speaks to the discomfort and fear of repercussions. People have given us a variety of reasons. But you know, one thing that comes up that is really moving, is related to a scene in the play. We put a scene in the play based on some stories that were shared with us. Oscar, a character in the play, works in the office of the revisor of statutes. He's also a gay man. And he talks about his identity being not part of his job, but it being something he feels when he's in a politicized environment, where his identity is part of the politics at play. And that being a difficult thing to navigate, that you're in a job to help people who sometimes don't just disagree with you, but disagree with your right to be yourself. 

SHEILA

How do you act like you don’t have opinions when you see the outcomes going badly?

OSCAR

Because being in the room matters. During the Marriage Amendment debate, I know that me being a gay man made a difference. Legislators, my colleagues, lobbyists, could see a person they knew who would be affected by the law they were writing. I didn’t ever stop being nonpartisan but I know that if I stay in the room, I can make a difference. It’s the process that matters.

Leah Cooper

I'm just curious, going back to what I said earlier about the mental health of employees and having their story understood, how do you think government agency staff navigate that challenge of being somebody with their own points of view, their own identity, while working in a political environment. I know I'm asking you to speak on behalf of people who aren't here, to whatever extent you're comfortable. I'm really curious what you both think of that.

Jerry Krueger 

Yeah, for me, I've, I just have always been able to just sort of shut it off. And I just think of, we all have our individual issues and our concerns and perspectives. But I'm here to maintain this place that allows all of these ideas to sort of come together, and where we all, you know, we come together and we hammer out our differences, in this place, and keeping the whole of this place functioning is more important than my individual issue, in the role that I have. I'm there to maintain, and just keep this place going. So all these other things can happen. And all these ideas can sort of come together, and we can figure out how we want to govern ourselves. That whole is more important than any of my individual issues.

Leah Cooper  

Wow, that's really eloquent Jerry. 

Ned Rousmaniere

Yeah. 

Jerry Krueger  

I didn't think so.  

Leah Cooper

It’s really inspiring too.

Ned Rousmaniere

So is it ever challenged? Have there been times when you felt really challenged about that?

Jerry Krueger  

No, I haven't. 

Ned Rousmaniere

Huh. That’s great.

Jerry Krueger

It's the I'm, of course, I'm speaking for myself. 

Ned Rousmaniere

Yeah. 

Jerry Krueger
And now in my current role, it's more easier now that I'm the facility side, who are directly involved with, you know, people coming in protesting and space reservations and that, but I've always been able to keep that in mind that, you know, the whole, you know, the totality of what's going on here, you know, the system is more important to maintain than my individual concerns or beliefs, because without the system, where we come and hammer out all these differences, my beliefs really don't matter at the end. You know, if there isn't this place where people can come and they can protest and come talk to legislators, where we elect representatives, and we have all these partisan fights, none of it really matters. My opinion doesn't really matter if we don't have democratic government, where we can come and hash all these differences out for better or for worse.

CIVIL SERVANT

It’s the process that matters. The process is beautiful.

LEGISLATOR

But my constituents still don’t have a road!

EXPERT

You only think of your constituents. We’re thinking of the best interests of the state. 

CIVIL SERVANT

But we’re not supposed to make a big deal because we’re non-partisan

OSCAR

So non-partisan we shouldn’t even be talking to you.

Ned Rousmaniere

That's fantastic. And that speaks to you that also please speak to a little bit to the facility. That particular role of supporting this thing where the great things happen. Like you're supporting the process, and you have faith in the process. I've seen some employees feel dismayed, the process is not working well enough. And as a result, we're getting a bad product. Because state government is really kind of a knowledge organization. I mean, it does some other things. But it's really a knowledge based organization. And I study this thing, and I see it being over -  ignored, I see it being trashed, I see it, I've came here to represent this, this my knowledge, and it's just not being taken into consideration enough. And the process is not taking it into account, you know, so I've seen people feel discouraged. Mostly not. Mostly I see people saying, Yeah, this is part of it. And I recognize I have to make some compromises, because that's how we're, we're a government we’re a democracy, a government of people, but I see some people feel discouraged.

Leah Cooper  

That makes sense. So this episode is really about the power and the limits of invisibility, which you’ve both spoken to really eloquently. And I'm, I'm curious, I mean, Ned, you just spoke to this sort of what it means to really see something happening up close, in a way that maybe the public doesn't. And that's a position of a certain amount of power, but not really of control. Right? And I'm, I'm just curious, how do you think the people who stayed, the people like you, Jerry, how you that you feel it's generally working, you feel it's worth it – what are the moments of pride or a sense of impact that keep people coming back? For these invisible roles where things are messy?

Jerry Krueger  

For me, it's the fact that every year people keep coming back. The protests change. And sometimes they're the same. You know, sometimes the same group has come for 30 years, you know, year after year, because they haven't gotten what they wanted. And you have those groups. And then you have the sort of new groups that are always popping up with new issues, and new things that are coming up people are concerned and passionate about, and that all keeps happening year after year. And people keep coming back and congregating here every year. And I think there's something really special about that. You know, one of the things I always think about about the State Capitol was when Paul Wellstone died and people just went… they just came to the Capitol. It was like this terrible thing has happened. Where do we go? Well we just, we go to the Capitol. And that was over 20 years ago. And we keep coming back. And I think that really speaks to what an important place it is, despite its failures in the past and in times to come.

Ned Rousmaniere

Yeah, there was that - I remember I was part of that one. And also the Women's March on the day after President Trump's inauguration. I was there and I thought, I think I was texting somebody and I said, I mean, there's a lot more people here than I thought there'd be, there must be like, 20,000 people here. Well, turns out it was like 100,000! I mean, I can't imagine what it was like for you folks. That was just incredible. Every spot in the Capitol Mall was occupied. So it's a fantastic symbol to me.

I also wanted to just say something about your asking what brings people back? So there's noble reasons why people stay where they stay. Things like, I think I can make a difference whether it's in agriculture, or commerce or whatever, the different agencies –  we're keeping banks honest. We are keeping groundwater clear. But the other reason why people come back, doesn't have to do necessarily with higher purpose, but because they like where they work. They like being with like-minded people. I mean, that's why most people in my observation keep their jobs, isn't necessarily because of a higher purpose, but because I like this group of people. I just heard this yesterday, I was at a corrections thing. There's been terrible assaults in the prisons in Stillwater and Oak Park Heights for a few months now. And I was in a meeting about that. And “why do we do this? Why do we put our lives and our safety on the line every time we come in?” And there's people who are really wondering, Should I do this? I don't think so. And there's people who are saying, I don't know why I do it, but I know I've got you – and they refer to each other as brothers and sisters in those walls – Because I feel like I'm part of something, this is my family, I can't leave this job. So there's there is that reason also why people come back

Leah Cooper 

If I told you, I just got a job at the capitol. Are there things you would warn me about or tell me to be sure to to do?

Ned  Rousmaniere

I’d say prepare for being challenged by understaffing and underfunding. Because ultimately, our pay is, it's from taxpayers. And there's tremendous pressure to reduce the taxpayer burden. And almost by definition, state work is being delivered by not enough people. So be prepared to be understaffed, and, or underfunded. Be prepared for your agency to get negative to get thrust into headlines for negative reasons. And this happens throughout state government. Because you’re public, you know, when you're at Wells Fargo and you're working for Toro company, when you have something embarrassing happening, it doesn't merit public attention, because there isn't public funding behind it. But when something embarrassing happens in the Department of Commerce or Education or whatever. Just be prepared to be thrust into the public eye in a negative way, and that just happens. So those are three things to look out for underfunding, understaffing and negative, negative attention.

Leah Cooper 

You're making it sound great, Ned.

Ned Rousmaniere

Why would you want to do it? Because because you've got an opportunity to make a difference in people's lives, you know whatever agency you're with, you've got an opportunity to impact citizens, families, businesses, the environment, visitors, you know, there's various ways that you will, your work. Hopefully. Okay, so the Okay, so here's the other piece of advice. Make sure you can draw a line between your effort and the hoped for outcome. I've often asked employees, how does your work affect the state, how does it benefit the state? And it's disappointing to me how frequently employees just say, I don't really know, all I do is I process this thing that affects I support this, this software, this application software application that enables the Department of Human Services to do this or that, and they feel distant from the outcome. So I would say, my advice to you would be, make sure you can draw that line clearly. And if you're not sure, make sure your leader can do that. So when you're interviewing for the job, ask, how does this benefit the state? How will my efforts benefit the state? Because you want that supervisor or that manager to be able to answer that question positively. And if their answer is, you know, we don't think about that. Then I'd say, that may make it a lot harder to be in state government, because there's all this stress that I've just described. Underfunding, understaffing, media attention. You've got to have purpose. And this is wonderful – Jerry, you got that really clearly. You need that to help you get through those rough spots. 

Jerry Krueger  

I've honestly never thought about that in all my years there.

Leah Cooper

Wow. 

Jerry Kreuger

Um, I think you're right, you have to be very conscious of the fact that your salary is paid by the taxpayers and your agency is funded by the taxpayers and you have to be prepared for the scrutiny, and the procedures that come along with that, you know. Things can be harder to do, because, you know, you have to fill out this form in that form. And it can be frustrating and everything, but it's, you know, as cumbersome as that can be, like a lot of that exists to make sure that we are spending money in the taxpayer’ss interest. And you just have to be conscious of that – I think that's very important. You have to realize that everyday you're there, you're being supported by taxpayer money.

Leah Cooper  

At the very beginning of this actually, Ned, you said Jerry knows all the best secret spaces. And I wonder if that's true. Or if there's if you have a favorite, a favorite space in the building or a favorite memory of something that happened that people might not know about.

Jerry Krueger 

The vet’s fifth floor is a good one. That is one of the best ones. I'm glad you got to go up there. Because that is a really great place and it's one of the best views of the complex. Oh, it's a big question.

Ned  

One of my absolute favorite ones is that overlook across from Admin - Department of Administration – that outlooks over the city.

Jerry Krueger  1:06:11

Oh the Cass Gilbert Overlook. 

Ned

That's what that's called?!

Jerry

Yeah. Cass Gilbert. Overlook. Yeah.

Ned  

That's like, no one thinks about that. And when I have my retirement, when I retire, I want to do something there. Oh, that's, No one - I mean, that should be a place where people get married for crying out loud. That is such a beautiful spot that is not the most lovely infrastructure - the concrete’s old and stuff, but it's just looks over St. Paul. That's one. Uh, there's that goofy, there's that statue of the Viking on University, just west of the capital north of state office building.

Jerry Krueger  

Oh, Leif Erickson

Ned  

Leif Erickson. Like, why do we? I don't know that there's actually any actual evidence that Vikings made it to Minnesota. But we've got that beautiful statue of Leif Erickson.

Jerry Krueger  

That's a wonderful little park. On the far side of that building. I've taken lunch there many times

Ned Rousmaniere

I used to park in such a way that I had to walk from there to across Leif Erickson, sometimes through the Capitol, get the COB. And it was really, really wonderful way to get to work really inspiring oh my God. What to walk to work.

Jerry Krueger  

Yeah, I always like, for most, pretty much most of my time there. I drive in from the west, and I come in on John Ireland, past the transportation building. And every morning, I make the take the MLK loop in front of the Capitol. Yeah. And that always is inspiring, like, oh, yeah, this is where I'm coming to work. Yeah, this is a pretty cool place. You know, you know, whatever stresses and things I'm going to deal with during the day, like, this is pretty cool.

Ned Rousmaniere

And also, the people you work with keep it beautiful. Like the grounds are just beautiful. And that comes from, you know, Jerry's area. 

Jerry Krueger

Yeah, that's one of the things. I remember one time, I was on the vet’s fifth floor, and I was looking out and I could see all those guys, like, four or five of those guys out there just sort of doing their thing and just keeping you know, because I got up there and I thought, you know, oh, this is such a great view, so beautiful. And then like, looking out I could see all of the guys out there that are actually keeping it beautiful. And doing all that work. You know, people’s eyes just sort of slide by, but you know, that that is actually keeping everything looking the way it does.

Ned Rousmaniere

Yeah, exactly. Just the personification of that invisibility.

Leah Cooper 

Yeah, as many times as we visited, I never saw that place looking anything but pristine. That really struck me.

Jerry Krueger  

Yeah, it really is something especially with all the things that happen there. The Women's March, you know, how many people was that, you know, trampling over the grounds and cramming in the building and all of that. And then, the next day everything is ready to go again, no matter what happens. There's this little army of people that come out and clean everything up and get everything set for the sun to rise the next day and everything to start all over again, Whatever comes our way. And you think of all the things over the years that all the people that have come through there and all the changes that have happened and all the different issues and things that have happened in the world that people that have gone through there, and it just, it's just all there. And it's always ready. Yeah, ready for the next day. It's really something, like the doors are open, you know, 8am the next day, the doors are open, the floors are clean, the trash is all picked up. And you know, it's a comfortable temperature. And the historical center guy is right there at the front desk again, and it's just all ready to happen.

Ned  1:15:54

Yeah, there could have been some wild debate yesterday, and marches and stuff I mean, every day during session, almost every day, there's some organized information, some groups, advocacy groups come in and set up camp and a lot in the, in the vault or whatever. So today, it's tree preservation. Next day, it's Gun’s rights, Second Amendment stuff. Next day, it's something else, but every day it opens up for whatever the next debate is gonna be – it’s an amazing thing.

Jerry Krueger  

One of my favorite things to do is when I'm just walking around the grounds just traveling between buildings, or I'll see like a little group of people just sort of walking away from the Capitol, and you can tell they've kind of come down their thing, and they'll like, have their signs at their sides of whatever they were there for. And I always kind of like to peek and see like, what were they here for? And sometimes, like, I can't even tell about the sign, because it'll just say, like, No on - you know, a certain number-  you know, like, No on Proposition 4 or something like that. So it makes no sense. And I can't figure it out. And sometimes it's very clear, like an abortion sign or something, or, but that's always really fun to see, like, sort of people like that have come done their thing, they're leaving, and they're just coming up their signs. And, you know, maybe they toss in the recycling thing. But for a couple hours they got to be an advocate for something they cared about.

Ned Rousmaniere

That’s it, absolutely.

Jerry Krueger  

Yeah, but for a couple hours, they got to be an advocate. That's something they cared about. Absolutely. You know, out of their lives, you know, they got it, you know, in they plan for this. And, you know, somebody's got an idea in their head, we need to go and raise a ruckus about this. There's somebody about this, and then they just, yeah, they come and it's interesting, because it's like, it's almost as if it's like they, you become something else when you step into that building,

Ned Rousmaniere

Yeah. That’s it. You just articulated something, because I've also been drawn, really, my eyes gone to those people who walk away, who are walking away. And they have just, that's it. They've just played a role. They really took on a persona, they really took on something. 

Leah Cooper  

It's funny, you know, I think part of the reason we we have returned to this project is that so much of what we saw at the Capitol reminded us of theater. Yeah, right. Yeah, a chance to get up on stage and speak your piece and be a person bigger than just yourself.

Jerry Krueger 

That's it right there. Yeah. That's a great analogy. That's right. Is Yeah, you can you can come and be a bigger person, play a completely different role in the world, become something else, you know, then you are at your job, or as a parent or your hobbies or everything else. 

Leah Cooper

That’s what makes if feel like it’s the People’s House, right?

Jerry Krueger

Yeah, absolutely.

Leah Cooper 

I feel like after our experience, spending so much time there, now I want everybody to think of something they care about enough to make a sign and show up at the capitol, yeah, experience of being there. Standing for something with a bunch of other people. It's so moving, and it makes it makes you feel connected to the rest of the state in a way that nothing else does.

Jerry Krueger  

Yeah, it is an experience. Yeah, I don't see where that particular feeling can be replicated anywhere else. I know what you mean, where you want everybody to come, and see it and walk inside and look up and see all those paintings, you know, this is your state capitol. Just come in look at the paintings of the past governors. Take a tour and, you know, just learn about it, you know? Yeah, you'll make it your own.

Ned  

Absolutely.

AB: When we describe for people the kind of work we do, they sometimes ask why we did a play about the Capitol. We’ve worked with military veterans, people affected by adoption, people affected by the incarceration system. I guess, if you’re not in those communities, you think the common element is trauma. But people who work behind the scenes at the state Capitol?

LC: Well, first of all, the common element isn’t trauma and we hope that by making plays with these communities we can help show people the incredible complexity within them. Second, the common element is that Wonderlust works with communities whose stories are essential to how we live our lives, but who are often ignored, misunderstood, or marginalized. It turns out that historically silenced and marginalized communities often also have trauma, but that’s a different conversation.

AB: In this case, neither Ned nor Jerry were eager to be interviewed, and yet the people we talked with who work behind the scenes all wanted their stories told, they just weren’t comfortable being the ones to tell them. But these stories are essential to how we live in Minnesota and I just wish everybody knew them.

LC: Let’s end with a perspective that we heard from so many of the people who go to work each day and just do their best to make Minnesotan’s lives better. This is something we heard so much that we had to have somebody say it in the play.

OSCAR

People talk about how the Capitol lacks civility and is too political, but my parents grew up in a place where trouble was solved with bullets. I am very appreciative of this country and the freedom and respect people have for the law, and I wish that other areas of the world that are troublesome could actually learn something from how peaceful this democracy has been in the past. And I wish that people here and now would appreciate it more too.

Leah Cooper

You’ve been listening to Our House. I’m Leah Cooper.

Alan Berks

And I’m Alan Berks. In our next episode, we’ll dig into why the democratic process can be so performative. We’ll talk with Jim Schowalter, now former Commissioner of the Department of Management and Budget.

Jim Schowalter

Listen to and understand what's going on in government, just half as much as like I listen to or think about the Vikings or the Twins. Because, you know, I can tell you the batting averages, I can tell you some of the strategy moves and who might be drafted in the recent MLB draft. I know that. Very few people know who was the most recent Commissioner to be named, what was the success rate of projects in the Department of Human Services? Nobody has that information. And it's knowable, but nonetheless our attention tends to go to other things.

Leah Cooper

And Sam Fettig who used to work in Communications for Governor Dayton and Attorney General Keith Ellison.

Sam Fettig

Someone comes to the Capitol, they expect to be heard, they expect to see change happen. And instead, they sit through a committee hearing where they don't know what's going on, and they don't have a chance to speak. And they go home more disillusioned and more cynical than they were. They had a chance to be in the room, and it made it worse.

AB: “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with additional help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by myself and Becky Dale. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play and the original cast, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g.

LC: The Professional Actors you heard in this episode were Megan Kim, Laurel Armstrong, Bradley Greenwald, Adam Whisner, Ernest Briggs, Siddeegah Shabazz, and Pedro Fonseca. 

AB: Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible.

LC: Thanks for listening!

In an awful situation

You want people who are patient

Who will work together all hands on deck

CHORUS

To build a bridge of hope and respect

For you.

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