Episode 4: The Power of the Past

Why do people get so upset about what art is displayed at the Capitol? Because how we see the past guides where we will go, and who is invited, into our collective future. Guests: Kate Beane and Paul Mandell 

0:00 Introduction
7:46 Where did your journey with the Capitol begin?
11:32 Why do aesthetic choices at the Capitol matter?
17:07 Is the building still a monument to the Civil War? Should it be?
21:09 How do you navigate having your family history politicized?
33:35 The paintings removed from the Governor's reception room
44:14 Why do people get so angry about art?
50:05 Conclusion

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 7:46 Where did your journey with the Capitol begin?
• 11:32 Why do aesthetic choices at the Capitol matter?
• 17:07 Is the building still a monument to the Civil War? Should it be?
• 21:09 How do you navigate having your family history politicized?
• 33:35 The paintings removed from the Governor's reception room
• 44:14 Why do people get so angry about art?
• 50:05 Conclusion

Transcript

Alan Berks

Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Alan Berks.

Leah Cooper

And I’m Leah Cooper. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original play about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota politics is very much like theater. 

Alan Berks

In this episode, we’re actually going to talk directly about how art, and architecture, isn’t just incidental to how government works but actually has a deep effect on citizen’s feelings of access and power. 

Welcome to the People’s House.

Did you look at the paintings in the ceilings?

Did you notice the carvings and dramatic friezes?

Designed to awaken civic feelings?

Welcome to the People’s House

Did you climb the marble steps and see the view?

Were you moved by the vision and the statues?

Do you feel that the government is you?

Welcome to the People’s House.

CIVIL SERVANT

Those figures, peaceful memorials, the gardens, the art,

Remind me I work where the sum is larger than my small part.

Leah Cooper

Our two guests have both had a strong influence on how people experience  the Capitol. For 34 years Paul Mandell was the Executive Secretary for the Capitol Area Architecture and Planning Board - called the CAP Board for short. He advocated for the restoration of the Capitol building. 

Alan Berks

And that restoration sparked the play we made so, in a sense, he inspired us.

Paul Mandell

We were trying to get money to fix the Capitol. It was leaking,  stone was falling off the building. And I made this comment to one of the many people that cover news articles at the Capitol. They said, Would you go on record? I said, well yeah, it's the truth. The next day I came and everyone's like, Oh, God, Paul, you. The commissioner is looking for you. And you are, your name has really been banded around this morning, I go, I don't work for them. And I told the truth. Within two weeks, I mean, within two weeks they were wheeling around the pieces of the marble that had come off the building, because they realized, well people were saying, if it's really that bad, we should fix it. 

Alan Berks

Paul came to a story circle early in the process of research for the play. A reminder – we make all our plays over the course of 2-4 years through close collaboration with the people who actually live the subject we’re writing on. Paul was remarkably candid talking with us – telling us the truth as he saw it – while other government workers were pretty wary of sharing at all. 

Leah Cooper

Our other guest Kate Beane, the Executive Director of the Minnesota Museum of American Art, has roots in Minnesota that reach far deeper than statehood. Her ancestors brought Father Hennepin to Minnehaha Falls.

Kate Beane 

When you look at a painting like the Father Hennepin painting of him discover, so-called discovering St. Anthony Falls, you can't see my air quotes. But you know, in reality. You know, Father Hennepin wrote a very exaggerated story about this time period. And if you look at that image, which is a very romanticized image, that does not show the way that our people looked whatsoever. I mean, the women, that's not what we look like. And the fact that it's, it's really this romanticized perspective of somebody discovering and taking ownership over a body of water, and saying that he discovered it, you know, that's a colonial interpretation. When in reality, there was a group of Dakota people who showed him where that body of water was, and took him there. And the way he wrote the story is that he was held hostage, when in reality, we know, we know from oral history within our own families, that he was shown where that place was, he went home, he came back, he actually came back. I mean, I don't know who gets taken hostage, and then comes back to the community a second time. But our family actually passed down that oral history. And my grandfather wrote about the fact that it was our family that actually showed father Hennepin where the Falls were. And so we know that story very differently. And we have a very different interpretation of it. You know, St. Anthony Falls for us is  Owámniyomni, the three whirlpools, and that is a very sacred space to us that we've known about for for a very long time. And so to have that interpretation of it took a white man of the cloth to come and discover this place. And to have that interpretation be upheld as if that is the one true narrative is really problematic.

Leah Cooper 

Before taking over the Minnesota Museum of Art, she worked for, among other places, the Minnesota Historical Society. Throughout her career, Kate has helped make sure that the stories of all Minnesotans are being told.

Kate Beane  

. . . One thing that's really interesting to me is to think about what was there before the building? And why is the building in that location, you know, that is not just about the architecture, it's about the land. And the river ways. And I helped with adding in some context for a larger history there, and then a native history and thinking about the land itself. And, you know, I think that's really important. When we think about walking into this space, there's this very sort of well manicured green space. And I was just thinking about that today in terms of why isn't there indigenous plantings if this is Minnesota's house, why don't we have indigenous Minnesota plantings here? We as Native people are walking into these spaces, we often bring our medicines with us. We bring our, you know, our protector plants with us when we go into the capitol to advocate for ourselves and our communities. You know, why aren't more of those readily available in the lawn of the Capitol complex? And I think that there's an important point there in terms of thinking about how do we help sort of soften the edges of this place that can sometimes feel very imposing. We are very humbled, being very small individuals within this space, but we also have to have the courage to be able to fight for those who come after us. And so thinking about how to make sure that more people feel welcome within this place is really important.

Paul Mandel  

You know if you look at the building and the architecture, you feel like a tiny speck. And, but, you know, if, you know, some of the legislators might have delusions of grandeur that they are the most important thing that happened since sliced bread. And they get inside that capitol building and they realize they’re not really that big, or that important

Alan Berks 

So the building is designed to make you a little humble?

Paul Mandel  

Yeah. Even though it's imposing at the same time.

Alan Berks

We met Paul and Kate for our conversation at the East Side Freedom Library in St. Paul, which is a community space that serves as a resource on labor movements. Sitting there, surrounded by stories of people fighting the dominant narrative of power seemed appropriate for a conversation with two people whose work at the Capitol is a constant push against the status quo. We started our conversation where their journey with the Capitol began.

Kate Beane  

I was appointed by Governor Walz to join the Capital Area Architecture and Planning Board. And I went to the capitol and there was a barrier around it and I was lost and I didn't know where to go, so I called Paul. And he had to sort of like direct me for where to go.

Alan Berks  

I actually had that  - I didn't have the same experience - I was there for different reasons, and there were no barriers, but I got lost the first three or four times. It’s like…

Kate Beane  

It's like it's a confusing place.

Alan Berks 

It's a confusingly designed building. That's that was my experience.

Paul Mandel  

I am not from Minnesota, I moved here in 83, and had held a variety of different nonprofit jobs. And then, when I first came to the Capitol, I had worked in Washington, DC, for a while I had been actually working on the hill, as they say, in Washington. So I had been in the, in the United States Capitol quite often, but I'd never been to our capitol. And I actually heard about a job and went and applied for it, and never could have imagined that this New York guy shows up in Minnesota and found the job of his life. But walking around, and, you know, this is the seat of government. This is where decisions are made that affect people's lives. And this is where money decisions are made in politics - everything is political. 

Alan Berks  

But so you said the building for you? Would it be fair to say it was like love at first sight?

Paul Mandel  

Wonder? Probably yeah, yeah. And like, my kids, when I started working there, my kids were all in either newborns or and I remember that they'd always call it daddy's building. And at the time, Governor Perpich was the governor. And I would say, if you come to visit Dad, don't call it Daddy's building in front of other people, because there are some people that think it's theirs. 

Alan Berks

OK, fair enough. 

Paul Mandell 

And it's I just worked there. Yeah,

Kate Beane

Well it’s supposedly all of ours. 

Alan Berks

Yeah, it’s supposed to be our house, but yeah.

Kate Beane 

Well I just remembered I had actually been there before that, because I remember during the renovation, when I was working at the historical society, we were given a tour before it opened to the public. And I remember walking in and being so troubled by some of the artwork, and feeling really conflicted. And feeling like this place is so grand and so beautiful, and I feel really uncomfortable.

Alan Berks  

Is the, was the discomfort for specific artwork, or a lot of the artwork? Could you,

Kate Beane  

It was for specific artwork. I think, you know, over the years, there have been different things. Some of these are works have been called out. Some of them have been moved. But there were some artworks that really highlighted and you know talked about manifest destiny. And this, this, these artworks that were really sort of about civilizing native people. And they were very romanticized, and very sort of troubling in their interpretation. And then there were the other artworks that I became more involved in later on, helping to contextualize that had more to do with Dakota history in Minnesota. And so those are the those are the works in particular that I didn't see at the time. But I saw other pieces that were sort of more general, very romanticized, very stereotypical and speaking to colonialism and manifest destiny as if it was just inevitable, what happened to my people.

Alan Berks  

So that's a question. I think that people probably… you both know, well, the value of symbolism. So how do you explain to people why these aesthetic choices matter?

Kate Beane 

Well, aesthetic choices matter, because representation matters. Feeling as if we're seen helps us to feel welcome within spaces. You know, when you look at the demographics of the state of Minnesota, I think, what do they say? By 2050, it's going to be the majority are going to be people of color. I mean, when you look at who we are as a state, and as a society, we need to make sure that there's adequate representation within all spaces. And for far too long, we haven't felt included. And when we go to these public spaces and advocate for ourselves, within our own systems of government, it can be a really uncomfortable experience, it can be a difficult experience, we're often exhausted, because we're fighting for people simply to, for the acknowledgement of who we are, you know, representation is the first sort of stepping stone towards change. And so, There's a lot of imagery out there that has lent itself to people. Having these sort of nostalgic imaginings of who we are as a people and as a state, and a lot of it is inaccurate, it is seen as fact when it's not, and some of it is just outright racist. And so it's important to really think critically about how we're seen and heard in these spaces. 

Alan Berks

 Do you have a similar perspective?

Paul Mandell  

Having been at the dedication and having worked on Nellie, from the day it was a piece of legislation. I'll never forget the words that Lt. Governor Flanagan shared because she had a personal she had a personal life experience in her mom, who had just passed just before the dedication, knew Nellie, I mean, they talked about the daycare and using coming over to her house and such like that, and I had heard that from other advocates that were working part of the committee. 

Leah Cooper

Paul's talking about the newest statue at our Capitol, of Nellie Stone Johnson, who was a labor and civil rights activist. It's not only the first statue of a woman anywhere in our Capitol, it's the first known statue of a woman of color in any state capitol in our country.

The passion that Lieutenant Governor spoke, especially with the raw wound that her mom had just passed, unfortunately, just before the dedication, and then seeing people dismissing the statue, as you know, because of the politics of the time was was disappointing. But when I show people around the building, and I talk about the allegory of the paintings up in the rotunda, or the metaphor over the, some of the chamber spaces, and there's a woman with the head of a fox and a man with the head of a chimpanzee and stuff like this. And I remember when those paintings were cleaned, and all of a sudden, the painters are going, Wow, they know that's up there? And it's been there for 100 years. They just got cleaned. But it's, it's representational, you know, type thing. But it's, it is a snapshot in time. And I remember, when the paintings in the governor's reception room, some of them were removed, and some, all the paintings were removed, to be restored. And Governor Dayton said, I just, I don't want to be just surrounded by civil war paintings. And unfortunately, he was taken the wrong way. He wanted more diversity showing today's population, but it wasn't, you know, a slam on the veterans or the people of the Civil War, who fought and died. But that's how it was taken.

Leah Cooper

 In our play, we wanted to dramatize some of the controversy over these paintings and the relationship of the building to the Civil War. So we staged ghosts that haunted tour groups as they went by. Including a Native American, a German Immigrant who worked on the building of the Capitol, and a Civil War soldier..

(A sound indicates the arrival of a ghost who is Native American.)

GHOST–NATIVE AMERICAN 

Imagine if they made the genocide of your people into a really well-drawn, fun comic book.

CHILD

Mommie, did you hear someone talking?

MOTHER

Shhh, Honey, she’s making television right in front of us. . . 

GHOST–NATIVE AMERICAN 

Imagine if your people were depicted as though in a comic book.

GHOST–IMMIGRANT WORKER

I did not know, when I came from Germany to work for a new life, that someone already lived here. 

GHOST–NATIVE AMERICAN

You did not know someone lived here first, or you did not care?

CHILD

Mommie, I’m scared. I think the painting is talking.

MOTHER

Shhh. Don’t be rude.

GHOST-CIVIL WAR SOLDIER

You helped build this building? Thanks for the monument.

CHILD

Mommy?

MOMMY

Shhhh!

GHOST–IMMIGRANT WORKER

You fought in the Civil War?

GHOST-CIVIL WAR SOLDIER

I did. I died at Gettysburg. My face is in a painting in the Governor’s reception room from a photo that my family brought to the artist.

Leah Cooper

The building was completed in 1905 and designed by the architect Cass Gilbert.

Alan Berks

 Let’s talk about Cass Gilbert for a second. Some say he was a visionary. He went on from designing our Capitol to designing the U.S. Supreme Court, among other famous buildings.

Leah Cooper

 But some people say he was a careerist. Because he was put in charge of the contest to pick an architect and then, somehow, coincidentally, he wound up being the contest. After designing our Capitol he moved to New York and never really looked back.

Alan Berks

He was definitely conservative, believing that architecture should reflect historic traditions and the established social order.

Leah Cooper

 Which is why our Capitol looks like something you’d see in ancient Rome or Greece.

CASS GILBERT

It made my name [CHORUS: Cass Gilbert]

It launched my career [He built the U.S. Supreme Court.]

It built my brand. [He designed every piece of furniture here.]

It gave focus to a young land. [We’re exceptional.]

CHORUS

Welcome to the People’s House.

Leah Cooper

When the Capitol was built, there was an explicit intention to honor the generation of Minnesotans who had fought in the Civil War, some of whom were still alive at the time.

Alan Berks

. . .Is the building still a monument to the Civil War? And is that what it should be? 

Paul Mandell  

I don't think most people even are aware of that. 

Alan Berks

Yeah, but choices are made because of that.

Paul Mandell

I would say, because the majority of people that work there aren't aware of that even though they wonder why, why are those four guys there and larger than life statues. And Gilbert did not intend for that to happen. He had envisioned, supposedly he had envisioned people who became presidents or vice presidents from Minnesota to be there  - not generals, and colonels and stuff like that. But the flags yes. And it's rather cool to see those flags, people, you know, you explain to people the reason that they're so holy is because cannonballs, these were in the battle, you know, think back then. But, you know, these were 50 years ago. And some of those paintings, they were interviewing the generals, or you know, the soldiers or whatever, you know, these painters actually had the interviews with the people who were in those battles 50 years afterwards.

Alan Berks

So I guess the question is, and I think it's one that you guys are more qualified to speak to is, how do you balance this idea of museums and monuments, telling people about what happened in the past? We should certainly remember the Civil War and be aware of it. And but then sort of being stuck in the past or perpetuating the the flaws of the past like, well, how does that building work in that dynamic?

Kate Beane  

I think part of it is even if it is a place that's a monument to the Civil War era, it's not so much, you know, whether or not it's a monument to that era. Is it a monument to a perspective of a certain group of people of that era? And how do you incorporate other perspectives so that you're broadening that out? You know, when you think about the Civil War era, and you think about the representation of Dakota people that are within the artworks there, whether it's through, you know, the the artwork about the Battle of New Ulm, about the Dakota War, or the Treaty of Traverse Des Sioux,  I don't think that that's really taking into account the fact that there were Dakota people who fought in the Civil War. There are other stories and there are other perspectives on that time period and the Dakota perspective on that time period is very different than the interpretations told in those artworks. And so it's not even so much about that time period. It's about prioritizing and isolating out a certain perspective of that time period.

Alan Berks  

That's incredibly well said. So even if you want to keep it this monument, it's still, it can be better in that way.

Kate Beane 

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it does beg the question, though, is, is that, you know, do we want to be stuck in that period of time? And do our children and grandchildren want to be stuck in that period of time? You know, is it really about a permanence of a specific time period? Or, you know, is it really about the creation of statehood? Or, you know, do we really think more broadly, in terms of including indigenous people, including people who had different experiences during that time period, and have a diverse array of experiences today and relationships to this state today. And then helping people to truly feel welcome so that they know that that is a place for them, and a place for them not only to visit or to advocate for themselves, within systems of government, to also work, to be able to feel comfortable walking into work every day is an important thing.

Alan Berks  

Yeah, yeah. So you guys are in the middle of some very controversial culture conversations - or were when you, before you retired - and it's always fascinating to me that art brings out this sort of battle. How do you just personally, how did you navigate the controversy? How do you navigate politics of it?

Paul Mandell

One of the one of those success stories, the Philippines study group approached the CAP board. There was the plaque to the Spanish American War in the rotunda space from the 20s or 30s, or whatever. That talked about how the Americans freed the Philippines from the Spanish, and the chief was happy and Americans died. And we were approached by a group in the 90s, before the restoration project saying you know history is always told by the victors or people who want to tell a particular angle of the story. Turns out, the chief was also the president of the country. And after we kicked the Spanish out, and the Filipinos had to fight the Americans to get their freedom from us, which took years, and a lot of them died. So the question came into because it was a political arena, and because it was in the capital, the legislature got involved, should we just get rid of the plaque? Should we fund its removal? And in the end, working with the group over a space of probably a year and a half, we said, well, let's get funding for a new plaque, we would add to the story rather than obliterating history. So they added a second plaque, made it look very historic, right at the same location, that corrected the inaccuracies in the first plaque.

Alan Berks

So the first plaque is still there?

Paul Mandell 

First plaque is still there. And the second plaque is right below it, telling the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey used to do, that's the rest of the story.

Alan Berks  

So you sort keep the inaccurate, 

Paul Mandell

Yes. 

Alan Berks

Kind of racist, plaque. 

Paul Mandell

Yeah, yeah. 

Alan Berks

And you have-

Paul Mandell  

-the one that told that finished telling the actual part that was inaccurate. You know, when, when the art subcommittee was working, and people were saying, so is Humphrey going to be a controversial plaque or memorial? Or we had the plaque to Roy Wilkins. And the whole depiction in that memorial is very, the art is very, not white person's language there’s spears, and there’s blockages with walls. The first one we had to put a plaque explaining the symbolism behind because it was not our culture's symbolism, it was done by an African American, to tell the story of an African American. So that's when we started using plaques to explain things that were not culturally accessible to white people

Alan Berks

- to the majority culture.

Paul Mandell

To the majority culture. Because they were like, what is that symbol? They used very inappropriate words to describe it at times. 

Alan Berks 

I want to chase that idea down in a second, but I want to come to you and ask you about the politics of it, like how do you? How do you navigate that, personally, when your family like you have the story from your family, so how-

Kate Beane 

it's not a choice. For me as as a Dakota person, my existence is political. You know, retaining my sovereignty as a Dakota person living in the city, coming from a people who've been displaced out of the state, even though my family is from the village sites here along the river… who I am, and the story of, of my family is very much tied to the politics of this state. And I think that for me, I find it interesting, I find it problematic, that people are so afraid of having difficult conversations. And I think that, for me, it's interesting to think about the opportunity to contextualize and to, to add in layers to stories, because it's really about storytelling, and whose stories are we telling, whose stories are we giving space to tell for us to tell our own stories? Art has this power to evoke empathy, just like museums do. And there is this this powerful way in which we can help to share stories in a space that that does more than words, because we all speak a lot of different languages, and or come from a lot of different cultures and have a lot that I think, can oftentimes divide us. But art has this opportunity to actually bring us together and to help us see things through another perspective, that sometimes I think people don't really get to when they read an academic text or a history book. History is contested. Art is contested, everything is contested. And I think as soon as people get used to that, and become more comfortable with being uncomfortable, I think that that then we can actually move the dial towards figuring out what healing actually looks like.

Alan Berks

Yeah.

Kate Beane

 It's about making space for one another and making space for those who are coming after us. And realizing that our children and our grandchildren are not going to want to feel stifled in a world that does not include them. And that does not allow space for their stories too. A lot of this, a lot of this art and a lot of these interpretations… There's an issue of permanence, there's an issue of the fact that there is a limited amount of space within the Capitol complex. And there are a lot of of items that are that take up a lot of space. And there are a lot of us that don't get enough space, and we need to fight for that space. And that's a problem. But I think we're getting to a point where there are more and more of us coming into work at the Capitol and coming into spaces where we're also a part of decision making at the Capitol, where we're trying to pave the way so that there's more space for all of us.

Alan Berks  

Is there a story that you can think of, of having a difficult conversation around these issues that that worked out? Or I guess, I suppose didn't work? Just like a specific example for yourself?

Kate Beane  

Yeah, I think, you know, when I when I think back to when I was at the Historical Society, and we were adding context to some of the some of the artworks such as the treaty, the Traverse des Sioux artwork, as well as the St. Anthony Falls, Hennepin artwork, and the Battle of New Ulm, you know, those those paintings, we are adding some some context to them to give some better understanding of the historical interpretation, doing interviews with different community members so that we could do these video snippets where people would understand some of the controversy in a different way. And it was very hard for me working within an institution, where some of the settler descendants who had a very conservative perspective had their own perspectives that were at odds with a lot of people in my community around these works of art, came into my workplace to be interviewed and I, nobody wanted me in the room. You know, and I don't know that that was intentional, I think, you know, maybe they wanted me protected from not having to be amongst those individuals. But part of it is some of those same individuals are some of the same people who oftentimes would email or write letters or be very much against me being with even within my position, you know, and so part of it is, is just about being included, and the fact that oftentimes as people of color as, as Native people within these spaces, because we have a different perspective, based on our own experiences, our family and community experiences, we’re seen as biased. And we're silenced. And we're either asked not to speak or other people are made uncomfortable by our presence, and we’re excluded from things. And I fought really hard in my career to be included, and to help others to understand that having diverse perspectives within these spaces adds a level of nuance. And I think that my former employer got to the place where they celebrated that and honored that and respected me within the institution. But there were still a lot of people in the public who were made very uncomfortable by it. And I got a lot of letters telling me so.

Alan Berks  

Thank you for sharing all that. I want to say this, I hope this doesn't make you uncomfortable. But Kate has said pretty articulately that her existence is politicized. You don't have that issue. You are a white man. 

Paul Mandell

Yep. 

Alan Berks

So what, how, have you had to have uncomfortable conversations or have you been able to sort of skate through? I think there was somebody that we heard a story from, talked about how when it was all white men at the Capitol, even if someone were a little conservative or a little bit liberal, they still basically understood how to communicate with each other. It was a little easier to get things done. Have you been able to get more done because of your, you know, ethnic background? Or how have you confronted difficult conversations?

Paul Mandell 

Well, you ask most people that know me, and they will say I don't shy away from political discussions. In fact, you know, it's always “you don't talk politics and you don't talk religion.” Those have always been the two favorite things I love talking about. I think you gain more I've always thought it's, it's better to talk about the both and as opposed to the either or, I mean, today, you hear it in today's, you know, the questions of what we have what's in our history books, or what is it? What are we teaching our kids, and it's sort of like, they see people as an either/or, you can't do a “both/and” because you either diminish or you your lessons, one piece, if you're going to include something else, like there's not room in history to tell both sides of the story. And I've always, my wife is famous for telling me “now, when we go here, I'm not interested in you starting a conversation about…”  she'll tell you all the hot buttons that I'm like, pushing. And it is I mean, I come in from an advantage that I have that liberty, but that's why I go I think more into politics and religion than anything else. Where I like to actually push the boundaries.

Alan Berks  

Yeah, my recollection from the stories you told when we first met you was that you did push the boundaries, because you weren't as concerned about your job as many other people who work in administration. So is there a story you can think of in which you pushed some buttons with some people who didn't want their buttons pushed?

Paul Mandell

Yeah. I'd often go to people like Mary Lahammer and just, you know, she's “I love it, that you can tell me those things. Because you don't mince words.” And I'm like, “Well, you don't fix the building that looks great.” But I, you know, I come in and from, you know, culturally, I come from an advantaged position. And I had a rank at the Capitol, that I could speak directly to the legislators and would be interviewed by the media. And I considered my responsibility to not just toe the company line, so to speak.

Kate Beane  

When and I feel like it's similar. Similarly, in terms of I feel like I come at it as at an advantaged position in being Dakota, because oftentimes people don't realize that there's an array of diverse perspectives and critiques within our own communities, and that it's not a white versus Dakota versus Black versus Hmong you know, versus Somali position, that we're not that our, our communities have a lot of different perspectives. And there is a beauty in that humanity. And there is something beautiful in being able to help people understand the ways in which we're really complex people with some complex issues to navigate through together. And for people to be able to see different perspectives and a variety of different perspectives coming from communities that they aren't so familiar with, is really interesting because that's where worldviews start to change.

Alan Berks  

Yeah, yeah. That’s really a great point. Thank you both. Can we just talk about the those paintings? You've already mentioned them. So they were in the governor's reception room. And there was, during the restoration, there was a call to get rid of them entirely. There was people saying no, we're restoring the building to exactly what it was before. And then ultimately, there was this compromise I guess. Do you guys feel as though that was a good process? How do you feel about how that all worked?

Leah Cooper

This all seemed so important when we were making the play. People were really up in arms about it.

PRESS

We’re standing today in the Cass Gilbert library, in the Western half of the building, on the third floor.

In 2017, when the restoration of the Capitol building occurred, two controversial paintings were moved from the Governor’s reception room to this out of the way space.

PRESS

Some preservationists argued that because the artists, Francis Davis Millet and Douglas Volk, were premiere landscape painters of their time, the paintings should keep their place at the Capitol. Others argued that the gross, historical misrepresentations they illustrated, depicting Native people as savages blessed by Father Hennepin’s presence, are too egregious. 

GHOST–NATIVE AMERICAN 

Imagine if your people were depicted as though in a comic book.

PRESS

The question is: How do we wrestle with the past? What responsibility do we in the present have for causes and effects that began long before we were born?

Paul Mandell

There were several paintings that depicted Native Americans in one form or another, that were removed from the Capitol. And I, with the exception of a few legislators, I don't think anyone blinked. And the fact that both the TD and father Hennepin were the two endpoints, where they would be the behind the governor, whenever he did a press conference added a serious gravity to the situation. Whereas the rest of them, people can go into the reception area and see them. But whenever, wherever the podium was, it was always at one end or the other. So it was like an in your face type thing. That I think that a lot of people would not have seen the offensiveness of, you know, here's the governor, and there's that painting again, staring at me. coming to you on TV in your living room, in the news,

Alan Berks 

People probably wouldn't even 

Paul Mandell 

want to write because so that added a gravity to the situation. The paintings that were removed. Nobody even mentioned some anymore tasting the two, because they were such an incredible and they told a story, both from what wasn't shown and what was shown. You know, and Kate eloquently talked about the Father Hennepin painting and how distorted the interpretation was on that. And the treaty - accurate portrayal, because they have the historical side, he has the pencil sketch - but it didn't tell the story. You know, they weren't all happy in that painting. In that case, a picture might be worth 1000 words, but you're missing the words.

Kate Beane  

And you’re missing the names with that one, too. A lot of times, you know, that image gets used so often, of the treaty signing, and it's so incredibly inaccurate, you know, that artist wasn't there. They were inspired by drawings by Frank Blackwell Mayer, who was actually at the treaty signing. And he's one of the first people the first images I've ever seen on my family, he drew one of my grandmother's, and I went to the Newberry library when I was younger and was able to actually hold that image. And I understand and love the power of, you know, those original drawings. But that painting is somebody who was inspired by those sketches who painted it later and wasn't actually there. And took some of their own leeway in terms of their interpretation. And they never include the names, even though we know the names of the people who were there, the Dakota people, they named the white people who are in the room. Whenever that painting is shown, that image is shown. But then they say and Dakota Indians, they don't name us. And so part of it is, you know, whether those images are in the capital or not, they're still used. They're still widely shared in documentaries and in textbooks within other spaces, you know, so it's not that the imagery is going to go away. And that's where for some of these things, that contextualization is incredibly important for people to understand why it's problematic. But then some of it, you know, some of the images, yeah, it does need to go away. And I think that, you know, in terms of a compromise, no matter what decision gets made, not everyone's going to be happy. Oftentimes, it's not making a decision at all. That's the worst thing to do. And so I think that there, there's a step in the right direction, but I also think that there is still a ways to go, and I think that we're not quite there yet.

Alan Berks  

I can't help but wonder whether you have some insight into the polarization that we see in society and politics, right, everyone is… people who are not involved, often feel despair of getting involved, because it just seems like it's just people fighting with each other and arguing with each other. But you guys have been involved and have had to find ways to make improvements and to include people. Do you see hope, in terms of resolving the polarization, just from your perspective of trying to reconcile art and viewpoints and representation? Does that give you hope that this polarization in our society can get somewhere?

Kate Beane  

I don't know. I mean, I, as a Dakota person, one of our values is positivity. And so I am, you know, I grew up a very bitter, jaded, young punk rocker, and I have now become the most hopeful, optimistic person, and anyone who I work with, I'm sure they get annoyed by my optimism. But I have to be that way because I don't have another choice. I have to be that way because I have three little girls at home and I want the best world for them. And the only way to have the energy to keep doing this work is to stay optimistic. And that's where resilience comes in. And that's where we really have to think about how far we've come and to think about the fact that, yes, sometimes it feels like it's bit by bit, and it's piece by piece, but it's going somewhere. The fact that we were having different experiences than our grandparents did, that we're making some headway. The fact that we now have a process for either removing or amending or modifying or adding in new artworks within the Capitol grounds. That process was not a public -  that was not a well-known process before. And whether it's so well known yet now or not, I think is besides the point, because we're going to continue to work on that. But the fact is, a lot of people worked really hard to develop a process so that now there is a public process to either take away or modify existing artworks. And people can go online, and they can fill out a form and they can be a part of that process. And it took a lot of work to get there.

Alan Berks  

Yeah. What about you? I mean, in your experience, have you been able to reconcile divided perspectives?

Paul Mandell

I think, I tend looking at things politically, I'm becoming more and more jaded, in fact, that I'm not sure govern, we can govern effectively anymore. But the more people experience that, you can have both/and - you can tell the history from both perspectives or from the multitude of perspectives. And you actually are richer because of it, rather than feeling necessarily, I mean, the knee jerk responses. I'm threatened if I tell less of mine and more of theirs. type thing. But the small successes when they keep accumulating, and you see that you're richer, because of it, we're a richer society, because of the diversity of that society. We are better because people know people with different experiences, sexual experiences, religious experiences, rather than, no, we can't talk about those things. Because that diminishes my, my rights and my certainties

Alan Berks  

So I'm a both and kind of person. “Yes, And” - a very theatery kind of thing. But like, sometimes the story that's been told is just wrong. So it's not a question of like, I'm just gonna add my perspective and your perspective. Yeah, it's like, that's factually inaccurate. But you are taught it as a child, so you don't want to let go with it. How do we reconcile that?

Kate Beane 

I mean, does everything have to be reconciled? You know, I think part of what I'm seeing here, too, is you know, that polarization has always been here. It's just it's, it's rising to the surface. It's more it's more apparent in some ways… people have this idea of what Minnesota Nice is. I'm sorry, but you know, there is a lot of racism within this state. That is just a lot more in your face, sometimes within other spaces, and it is still here, I think that there was just this sort of complacency in this, this sense of, of trying to mask it sometimes. And we're not there anymore. And so in a way, you know, things rising to the surface – my father was a community organizer when I see a fire when I see, you know, some of these, these these things coming together and these difficult tensions, you know, what that tells me is that change is coming.

Alan Berks

Why do people get so crazy over art? We talked about the positivity representation, but the people who are getting mad, why are they getting what's, what's happening?

Kate Beane  

I think that they're fearful. You know, people are fearful of change. They're fearful of the unknown. They're fearful of what they don't know. And so that plays a part in it. But I also feel like, you know, art is this, this powerful, medium to express and share perspectives and story and, and to be brave. And some people are afraid of that bravery. They're not used to it. But that doesn't mean it's going anywhere. Artists are going to keep being artists. And as we move into the future, it's going to be really exciting to see what else people come up with.

Alan Berks  

What would you recommend to people? Make sure they see at some point in their life. When you think of the kind of thing that does what artists do, you know, that, that shows a vision of the future that honors the past that really elevates an idea.

Paul Mandell  

I would do talk to two things. One, there's the meaning behind the quadriga, the goldheart, therefore, horse horses, the four horses actually represent the four elements of nature, earth, air, water, and fire, which are very, very indigenous native people go, I didn't know that. Those are the four out and they started thinking for themselves, really. And it gets people thinking more than Oh, they just for horses, you know, type thing. And that was done. I thought, I think it's, you know, it's there for everyone to see. And it's part of the descriptors that everyone hears when they go up, they want to see the gold horses, the fifth graders always want to get up to the for the gold horses. The other thing that I like, that is more at the accident happens, the Vietnam Memorial, if you aren't up close enough to see the names and read the names, but if you're standing at the angle, the south side of the wall, the Capitol image, because it's polished granite, granite, is reflected behind the names. And I can guarantee you that wasn't the intent of the artist. But it happened. And it's there, wherever you went. And it's added a depth to the thing. It's a discovery, a moment of discovery, if you will.

Kate Beane  

I think what I'm most excited about is the again, this is my my hopeless optimism was probably really annoying that I, you know, I'm I'm inspired by the possibility. And I, you know, I don't know whether I should say it or not, but I just will I think that one of the last times I was around the Capitol, and I walked by where the Columbus statue used to be standing there and feeling the power of that particular place. And the reckoning of that particular story with what happened with that statue. 

Leah Cooper

 Kate’s talking about how in June 2020, protesters pulled down a statue of Christopher Columbus that stood in front of the Capitol building. This was not long after George Floyd was killed. It was destructive, but it was also cathartic for Native Americans who had waited a long time to be heard and who felt that Columbus' victories were being glorified at their expense. 

I'm somebody that does not want to see artwork destroyed, you know, by any means I am all about preserving and conserving art. And and feel that that stories and perspectives are important. But I also feel like there is a lot of opportunity to make way for other stories and perspectives that historically have not been within these spaces. And to stand where that statue was and to see the view of the Capitol from that prominent place, to think of what could be there is really exciting.

Alan Berks  

Now, there's a process that people can figure out how to advocate and have potentially uncomfortable conversations as they do it.

Kate Beane 

well, and I think I think that's where it's really important to think about the fact that historically, process has been, what has excluded us from spaces. But to flip the script on that and really think about, if you have a good process, you can actually be inclusive, and you can develop a process that gives people a voice at the table that they didn't have before. And it can be a way to reach community in a way that historically we haven't seen be successful. And so, you know, process can be good or bad. But what I do know is that it also is a pathway towards opportunity. And there's an accessibility piece here that I think is really important and accessibility at our state capitol is incredibly important. And there's a bright future there.

Leah Cooper

What I love about this conversation is the way Kate and Paul think so much about how the built environment deeply affects what we bring into these political conversations. I guess it’s the theater director in me who thinks about how important the setting is to the experience of the whole story.  

Alan Berks

I hadn’t thought about what Kate made so clear, that  if you don’t see yourself represented where power sits, if you aren’t even “named” in the paintings, if your own community’s history is told in ways that are obviously misrepresentations, then you don’t have political power. And that’s why these conversations about art get so controversial.

Leah Cooper

But the controversy so often comes from this false dichotomy between whether the capitol should be a beautiful space that elevates our ideals or an inclusive space for participation by all. Truly elegant architecture should do both. 

Alan Berks

 They both acknowledged the beauty of the building, while also recognizing the flaws that remain in its design and in some of the artwork inside it. Were you surprised by how optimistic Kate was about such a small thing as an improved process for considering what artwork should stay and what should be removed?

Leah Cooper

 I was, but it’s not a small thing - art is an area that can not only uplift people but also show a process that might just work. But you have to push past what one group’s idea of quote-unquote neutral is to get specific about who we are and who this place is for. It’s undoubtedly worth it if what you want is a fair and open political process. 

Alan Berks

 In our next episode, we’ll talk with people who help make that process as inclusive as possible yet try very hard not to take up any space around the issues people argue over. These are people who fundamentally want to be invisible. Jerry Krueger, building maintenance coordinator, says there is a power to being neutral.

Jerry Krueger

We all have our individual issues and our concerns and perspectives. But I'm here to maintain this place that allows all of these ideas to come together, and where we all come together and we hammer out our differences, in this place, and keeping the whole of this place functioning is more important than my individual issue.

Leah Cooper

And Ned Rousmaniere, a recently retired supervisor in Organizational Health at the Capitol, shares his advice for people who want to work there. 

Ned Rousmaniere

Be prepared to be understaffed, underfunded - underfunding. understaffing and negative, negative attention- why would you want to do it? Because you've got an opportunity to make a difference in people's lives. Citizens, families, businesses, the environment.

Alan Berks

On our website, you can also hear the scene referenced in this episode or enjoy the whole play all at once as an audio drama.

You’ve been listening to “Our House” - I’m Alan Berks

Leah Cooper

  I’m Leah Cooper - “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with additional help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by Alan Berks and Becky Dale. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play and the original cast, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g

Alan Berks

The professional actors you heard in this episode were Ernest Briggs, Adam Whisner, Kevin Fanshaw, Laurel Armstrong, Bradley Greenwald, Megan Kim, and Andrea Wollenberg.

Leah Cooper

Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible.

AB: Thanks for listening!