Episode 7: The Power of Information

Though not officially part of state government, the press play an essential role. The information they traffic in can make things happen. Guests: Briana Bierschbach and Lori Sturdevant 

0:00 Introductions
2:30 How did you begin your careers at the capitol? 
10:08 Why are reporters the “least cynical” people in the building? 
11:32 How do you determine what is news and what isn’t?
16:04 Do you have a story about a time when your work has made a difference? 
22:55 What are things that work to make a difference, other than money? 
28:40 What pushes you to cover an issue? 
29:45 Have you seen a lot of change in the culture of the capitol?
35:19 How do you navigate covering what legislators want to show, versus what’s actually happening? 
38:40 Omnibus bills 
42:12 Is there a story you wish you had written, but weren’t able to? 
44:56 What makes your job difficult? How could it be better? 

Transcript

[show music]

Leah Cooper:
 Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Leah Cooper.

Alan Berks: 
And I’m Alan Berks. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota government is very much like theater.

Leah Cooper: 
And, like in theater, the media play an incredibly important role in letting people know what is happening. Yet, like in theater, they’re constantly letting us down.

Alan Berks: 
We need them, but we think they don’t truly understand us. We love them when they help us sell tickets, but when the media decides to criticize. . .

Leah Cooper: 
Well nobody likes getting criticized! But critical press creates accountability. 

Alan Berks: 
In state government, they’re not a part of the system officially, but they’re seen as an essential part of making the system work.

Leah Cooper: 
A lot of people we’ve spoken with have opinions about how the press do their job, and ideas on how a better press could make for better government.

Alan Berks:
Yet the people who work in state government are not helping journalists do it better, for the most part. Because access to information has power and additional scrutiny makes their job harder.

Leah Cooper:
 Star Tribune political reporter Briana Bierschbach explains:

Brianna Bierschbach:
 I have people I trust in both parties. And I trust them because they give me good information. And I guess that goes back to this idea that information is power. If you're a legislator who operates in good faith, or a lobbyist or someone who comes to the building, and gives good information to journalists, and to other legislators, you know, you do have more power, because you're operating in good faith.

Alan Berks: 
Lori Sturdevant, who started her career as a reporter at the Capitol in the late ‘70s, also understands the limits of the power of information:

Lori Sturdevant: 
Knowledge is power, information is power. But there are other sources of power. Some days money has power. If you are representing an organization that is contributing significantly to people's political campaigns, you've got power. And some days just plain having an election certificate under our system is all the power you need - that's power.

Leah Cooper: 
Both of these journalists are incredibly astute observers of the process.

Alan Berks: 
Yeah, they basically had in their heads all the information we needed to gather to write the play we made. 

Leah Cooper: 
They’re also great storytellers. It’s part of their job.

Alan Berks: 
So we started our conversation by asking how they began their careers at the Capitol. 

Lori Sturdevant  

I came to the Capitol in a roundabout strange way. I was the, the old Minneapolis Tribune, religion reporter, and the abortion issue was heating up. It was 1978, was a big election year in Minnesota, just as was the case - a few years ago, we had two Senate races, all the constitutional offices, including the governor's race, all the congressional offices, of course, and the Minnesota House, not the Minnesota Senate, but the Minnesota House. That was what was on the ballot in 1978. Big election year, Hubert Humphrey had died. There was a lot of controversy around those statewide offices. And they were putting all kinds of people in new and strange roles at the Minneapolis Tribune to cover all of that. Because I had been the religion reporter I was covering the abortion issue at the state capitol, and some other issues got tied in with that, and then as the session ended, I was assigned to cover Al Quie. I think they thought that the kid reporter should take the guy that they thought was the least likely to win. And he won! And so it was then an easy thing for the editors to say, well, you now know Al Quie, Why don't you go cover him as governor? So that was how I started covering the Capitol full time.

Alan Berks 

Do you remember your first impression, first feelings about the Capitol when you were the kid reporter?

Lori Sturdevant  

As far as the architecture, it blows me away and does still to this day, I walk into that place and go “Aaah.” It's uplifting architecture. It really is, if you like old European marble and all of that. A few years ago, I was in Italy with my husband on a vacation, and came back and realized the capitol in Minnesota is as good as anything I had seen in Italy. It's just marvelous. So it's an uplifting place. And I think that that uplift is something a lot of us feel in that place, even in the grungy basement - I felt proud to be there.

Alan Berks  

Yeah. Do you remember your first impressions and feelings?

Briana Bierschbach  

Yeah, I was actually, before I even got my first full time job at the Capitol. I was writing about city politics for the Minnesota Daily on the University of Minnesota campus. And I would sometimes get pulled into legislative politics. And I remember my editor at The Daily said, there's a press conference with Tim Pawlenty, you need to just run to the Capitol right now. And I had no idea what I was doing, but I jumped on the Green Line. And I just got off the train and walked into the Capitol, into the reception room for the governor where he holds his press conferences, and I couldn't believe how out of place I immediately was. There was chandeliers, there's like gold molding on the walls, these giant paintings. And there was this incredibly intimidating press corps sitting there about to ask Pawlenty questions about… I don't even remember what bill it was. And I had a backpack on and I was sort of mortified. But I was also like, this is amazing. This is amazing that these reporters get to sit here and ask questions of the governor. So I - After that point, I didn't expect or know that there would be opportunities for me to continue to do that kind of work after college. But I got lucky. The Associated Press hires a temporary reporter essentially just to cover one legislative session. So I graduated at the right time, I got that job. And then I realized I just wanted to stay in it as long as I could.

Alan Berks  

So there's that sense of uplift, that sort of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington thing, but as we all know, it's probably- it's not always so idealistic. 

Lori Sturdevant  

Well, the other thing I should mention about that though, is while the building is architecturally uplifting, what happens there is tough to cover. You have to be in many places all at once. And you can't really do the kind of journalism we have done without being there. It's a must location.

Alan Berks

So do you remember your moment where you were like, oh, this is the big leagues?

Briana Bierschbach  

Yeah, my first day at the AP, I walked in. And I was just barely not a college student anymore. So I had, I still had an eyebrow ring in, I'm pretty sure, and I didn't know how to dress. And I sat in the office for the AP for the first day. And my colleague was like, Are you on Twitter? You're young, like you need to get like, I wasn't on Twitter. He's like, “You need to get on Twitter. Everybody's on Twitter.” And then suddenly, it was just information overload. I was monitoring hearings, I was watching Twitter feeds, news was breaking all around me constantly. I remember one day there was a floor debate that I was supposed to be monitoring for an amendment that was coming to an energy bill that was a big deal. But I was so new, it was incredibly hard for me to tell in a four hour debate, what was the big important amendment and I missed it. And I missed the roll call vote. And my colleague came down frantically wondering if I had been taking notes. And I just - you realize how fast paced the environment is, you know, how quickly news can suddenly happen? I mean, you learn what news is, right? I I don't think I realized that a single amendment to a massive bill could be a breaking news alert on the AP wires. So it was, I learned a lot in that first session covering politics about how that place works and how intimidating and fast paced it is.

Alan Berks  

Yeah. Thank you. Do you have a welcome to the Capitol moment?

Lori Sturdevant  

I think that in the time that I came, and I hope this is still true Briana - one of the more senior members of the Capitol press corps would kind of take the young ones, the new ones under their wing and give them a little coaching. And I had a particularly good relationship with then, who was then the AP senior writer, Jerry Nelson. Was a marvelous guy and thought that it was important that this this girl journalist do well. And early on, I wrote something that one of the house DFL leaders, I was told later, didn't like. Something was not was not good in that story that I had written. And not that to me, but to others in the capitol press corps, he complained, mouthed off in some way about my work. So Jerry came to me and said, “Now what you need to do,” I can say the name because these people are all dead now. “Now you need to go to Irv Anderson. And you need to say to him, ‘if you have a complaint about my story, you come to me, please don't be telling my colleagues behind my back.’” And he said, “and speak right up to him, he'll respect you, and he won't do it again.” So I screwed up my nerve, and did as Jerry instructed me, and it worked. And Irv and I had a pretty good relationship, which is not something that all of my colleagues and the claim, Irv was a prickly guy.

Briana Bierschbach  

That’s something - Lori pointed out something that people don't necessarily understand about the press corps, which is that I see my colleagues from other news organizations, more than I see colleagues in my own, because we all work in the space. You know, I don't have a desk in my main office, I only work out of the basement of the Capitol or at home. So, you know, we see each other as colleagues, even though we're also competitors. So everybody is, there's a mentorship aspect to it, but also, just we all kind of see each other as as colleagues in a weird way, even though we will never give each other our breaking news scoops.

Lori Sturdevant  

Well, and reinforce each other's professionalism in so doing. Eric Escala once said that in the capitol basement were the least cynical people in the building. Well, that's part of a kind of a value or ethic, I think that is cultivated within that professional group. We aren't work colleagues, and that we don't all work for the same news organization. But we kind of adhere to the same set of values, I think, and that's, it serves the state very well.

Alan Berks  

The least cynical people in the building. Could you explain what you mean by that? 

Lori Sturdevant  

Well, I think we as journalists still think that this process that we are covering has value, that the messaging associated with that is of value to our citizens. We believe that the citizens seek and desire this information, so they can make good choices at the ballot. And we pretty much believe that still, yeah, I pretty after 47 years of watching this, I still believe that.

Briana Bierschbach  

Skeptical but maybe not cynical.

Lori Sturdevant

Yes, that’s right.

Alan Berks  

So asking questions, but not totally doubting the whole process?

Lori Sturdevant  

And believing it has value. I grew up in South Dakota, where state government is weak, and to live in a state and work in a state for my whole adult life where the state government is robust and makes a difference in people's lives… What we cover matters. I think all of us in the capitol basement believe that.

Alan Berks

So when you say other people are cynical, do you mean about the press? Or do you mean about the role of government?

Lori Sturdevant 

Oh, I think I'm thinking more of the latter. But there's yes, there's cynicism about the press too. I think that belief in this process, it on some level exists in with pretty much everybody in the building, but it runs especially strong in the basement.

Alan Berks 

I see. OK. Well just sticking on the press thing you had mentioned you learn what news is. And I certainly think probably most people who aren't reporters don't know why you cover what you cover. How do you, what is news? Is there a way that you can define why an amendment becomes important, but another amendment is not important?

Briana Bierschbach  

Well, you know, in that case, it actually was successful and surprising. I believe the amendment at the time was you know lifting a moratorium on nuclear, the construction of nuclear power. So that wasn't just some frivolous amendment that was going to be rejected or tweak a word here and there – it was a huge policy change. And it was eventually removed. But it showed that the majority party didn't exactly know or have their ducks in order on that particular issue. And it caught them by surprise. But in general, telling news, it's really a judgment call. You know, I think there are some things that you know, are news, right? A big massive billion dollar tax bill comes out and you know, every Minnesotan across the state is going to wanna know what tax cuts or increases they're gonna face, you know, a huge - this session, there have been a lot of bills signed into law, you know, some codifying abortion rights, others restoring voting rights for people who have felony convictions on their record, but are out on probation or parole, you know some of those things are going to be news. But the other, the things that we use our judgment on are, you're sitting in a hearing, and a testifier, you're just listening to it. I think any press, you know, person in the press corps would say you have a TV on at all times, even when you're not sitting in a hearing, you're always listening, because you never know who might come up to the testifiers table and say something that you can't believe you're hearing. I remember, a few years ago, a woman got up to a table at a hearing that I was just listening to. And she described a situation where she was raped by her husband, and that she was there to change a law that allowed that essentially to happen, or at least made it incredibly difficult to prosecute him for it. And who knew that there was a line in our law books that had really not been used, or had come into play very much over the course of a year but had in this situation, you know kept her from being able to get justice against her husband who had drugged her, and she didn't know what was happening until she found out later. And you're just sitting there and you hear that you say “that is a story.” So we have to use our judgment call, you spend a lot of years figuring it out. I sometimes, you know, make a bad judgment call or something isn't as exciting to other people as maybe it is to me. We always have to remember that we're in a bit of a bubble, too. And recognizing what is sort of things that are interesting, because we're in a bubble, and things that would be interesting outside of it to a broader group of people.

Alan Berks  

Do you have a favorite story were sort of the that identifies like how you identified news over time and discovered…

Lori Sturdevant  

Early in my career at the Capitol 1981, 82, that period, the state experienced really severe money trouble, a rather major deficit. And that experience, and the people coming to the Capitol pleading don't cut my funding, and here's why – that was really illuminating for me. I think it was that exercise that made it made me realize that government isn't some gray model is that you can whack at at whim. Government has people's kids and how they're being educated, how, what the size of their classes are in school, how the the quality of their teaching core. Government is the care that people get in for the elders in nursing homes. Whether that's adequate. Government is whether or not there's a policeman to come when you dial 911. Or if a sufficient fire force. Government is snow plowing and potholes and things people experience in their daily lives. And unlike the state where I come from, those issues get addressed at the state capitol. In other places, other entities structure their governments differently, and have those be primarily local issues or regional issues. In Minnesota, we do that kind of governing at the state level. So when the government has more money, there are lots of people who have real legitimate needs and want some of that money and when government is in trouble, it has to cut. Oh, that's painful. For lots of people - real lives are affected.

Alan Berks  

So in the play, because people said it to us in our interviews, they said information has power. And you guys - sort of that’s your currency is information. Do you have any stories about sort of, and I don't know if this is what you're aiming for, but do you have stories where your work has made a difference in terms of people being informed and then taking action or learning about something and then it having an effect?

Briana Bierschbach 

Yeah, I would say I mean, I think every day, every day, we're putting information I used to do this more. I did get a Twitter account that day, my colleagues said, Why aren't you on Twitter? And I use that all the time, especially in my early years, just literally, if I couldn't put something in a story, or I needed to get something out quicker than I could in my story, I was constantly sending tweets, and people who were in the building outside of the building, that was a way for them to get a feed of information quickly. And then I was also, you know, putting things into my stories, you know, shortly after, but I feel like, that was all I was doing for a long time. I use Twitter a little bit less now, just because it's become so much more vitriolic than I think it used to be. But I mean, you see the consequences of reporting, even from my colleagues, they might release a big investigative series about abuse in long term care facilities, right in the middle of a legislative session, and then boom, suddenly, a head of the Department of Health has resigned. And, you know, major laws are being passed in the span of a few weeks. I mean, something I can speak to that I covered myself was a situation where several women came and spoke to me about a sitting legislator who had, they alleged had grabbed and texted inappropriate photos and comments to them and other women in the political world. And within a few days, that story was reported and confirmed. And I spoke with the legislator, and they had announced they were going to resign. And then allegations came out about another legislator. And eventually they resigned. And then the legislature changed its rules for the first time in decades about how sexual harassment claims are treated and handled at the Capitol because they had never, they hadn't, in I think in the Senate has been 30 years since they even thought about updating that part of their rules. That's not to say that this is not still a problem at the Capitol. But it was a situation where in which I think something that I wrote, went out into the world and hopefully changed things to make it a little bit easier for people who have that happen to them to see some sort of result. The legislature is a strange place in that you have people who are hired and at will employees, and then you have legislators who have, you know, they're one of 201 members, but they have power, they have an election certificate, they can't just get fired. So it creates this strange imbalance and this strange dynamic that sometimes can be exploited.

Alan Berks  

Could you explain more what you mean by the strange dynamic? Do you mean the power dynamic?

Briana Bierschbach  

The power dynamic, but also, I mean, I think I like to explain the capitol as a big ecosystem, right? There's, there's legislators who everybody kind of thinks of as working there, and they have election certificates. And they've come because their constituents have elected them to be there. You have the governor who has that, but on a statewide level. But then you have all the people the governor appoints, who are there sort of at the will of the governor. You have all the advocacy groups that come in, to tell their stories or advocate on bills. You have lobbyists who are professionals, who work for organizations or clients who also come in, you have regular people who come in, and all of these people create this ecosystem that results in our laws and the changes that pass each legislative session. And it all, it's sort of strange in that there are weird imbalances there between who has power in that situation and who doesn't. And legislators certainly hold the most of it. But you do see moments when people who come in, sort of take that power and use it. I would say it doesn't happen as much as you'd like it to. But you do really see real examples where people flood the building, where people tell their stories, and they affect change.

Alan Berks  

Thank you. Yeah. Do you have a story?

Lori Sturdevant  

I thought about this line as I was driving over here, thought about this line, “knowledge is power” or “information is power.” And some days it is. But there are other sources of power. And I think the ecosystem metaphor is a good one for the capital, because some days money has power. If you are representing an organization that is contributing significantly to people's political campaigns, you've got power. And some days just plain having an election certificate under our system is all the power. you need. That that's power. And in that respect, the governor has the most power in the Capitol. But he's, there are checks and balances around that. And the courts we haven't talked about, but they're also part of the Capitol complex, part of this ecosystem that you described. So there have been moments in my long career, I can think of a few where it seemed like the information that was being provided by us in the basement had carried a lot of weight. And there I can think of particular political campaigns where revelations in the course of a political campaign carried a lot of weight. But that doesn't mean that we are a consistent source of power. And I can think of lobbying situations. Arcane topic, thinking about our good friends, Sue Abner-Holden, I don't think she'll mind mentioned me mentioning your name, because I'm gonna say something nice. This is the woman who's the head of the local NAMI, National Association for Mental Illness, advocacy group. Arcane subject, she knows a great deal having done this work for more than two decades. She has the kind of knowledge that has power. But there are other issues, comparable, and the people with the campaign money have the power. And the kind of information that a lobbyist provides may or may not make a difference, or may make a difference over time, as the acceptance of that knowledge begins to outweigh some of the campaign considerations. So it's complex. 

Alan Berks 

Yeah, but I think you've done a good job of illuminating how these different sources of power work. One thing we'd love to share with people is sort of when do the people and how do the people have power? So what are the things that people should know that you've seen work if you don't have the money?

Briana Bierschbach

That's a great question. I mean, I did write a story, once for MinnPost that was sort of a Citizen's Guide to lobbying your legislators, right? You don't necessarily have money or the connections where you haven't been at the Capitol advocating on a single issue for decades, and thus become sort of the expert on it. I mean, I think, you know, go to your legislator, you know. You are a constituent of someone, you know, even if they might not be carrying the bill on the issue you care about, go to your legislator and tell them how you feel about it, you could change their vote on a big issue. And that vote in a legislature that often has narrow margins, could be the one that turns something around. Go to rallies, go and fill the space. I think that is something that - the power of that can't be understated when legislators are sitting having a debate about a consequential bill, and they can hear the people outside the doors, you can literally hear the sounds and the sort of dull roar of people, lots of people chanting or clapping or, you know, just sort of existing in that space. And I think that's really powerful. And you can tell, it kind of stresses legislators out a little bit when they're in a long floor debate. So that I think is something. Go to committee hearings, I think they can be incredibly inconvenient, because sometimes they're in the middle of the day. But being able to sit at a table, a testifying table in front of legislators, or even being able to sit among many people in the crowd of a hearing that can show that enough people care about it to be here. Legislators sometimes don't think people are paying attention. We're there. We're in the basement. But what really worries them, even more than us watching is their constituents and people, regular people watching and paying attention. They don't like us watching either. Not all the time.

Lori Sturdevant

10 years ago, was the last time we had this trifecta, Democrats in charge of both the governorship and both chambers of the legislature. So all three sort of centers of power. And what I'm remembering is that the particularly House leadership, well, maybe Senate as well, we had just voted down the anti same sex marriage amendment in the 2012 election. The voters had rejected that. And many people thought, fine, now is our moment to legalize same sex marriage in Minnesota. And the legislative leader said, we’ll think about that. And were kind of dragging their feet and I thought some of them were thinking we might take it up in the non budget year that was, was going to follow, 2014. Or maybe we'll see how the next election would go. They would just stall for a while. But people came and people kept coming. And that building. Our lovely building is designed to allow for that to happen. It's designed to amplify -  the noise in the rotunda is supposed to be heard In the chambers. That's a design, I'm told by the lore anyway, of the people I used to talk to at the Capitol Architecture Board. That was Cass Gilbert's intention, that you would be able to come and have a chanting event in the rotunda, and it would be heard in the halls where actual votes were being cast. I think that that in 2013, the pro same sex marriage rallies that were persistent, steady, noisy in the capitol made a difference. And I can think of a few other cases like that, but that one makes me smile.

Alan Berks 

Was there a role played in terms of how the press covered that issue that brought people into the Capitol? Or was it independent of the media in your mind?

Lori Sturdevant  

We certainly covered the issue.

Briana Bierschbach 

I mean, I think that we were writing stories from the moment the amendment failed to the moment they eventually did take it up in the house, because there were people who wanted this to happen. And there were people who were not so sure that this was the right step right after this very long and arduous and contentious campaign to stop a ban on gay marriage. So we, you know, because we had been in it for almost two years, at that point, we weren't not asking those questions. And we knew there were advocacy groups and others who wanted this to happen. So I mean, I would say any chance we got, we would say, What's the status on this? Are you taking it? If not, why not? You have all the power. You said this is, you know, you didn't say in so many words that you were gonna take this as a next step. But we know there are people within your coalition who want to do this. And I think that you keep it front and center.

Lori Sturdevant 

Coming out of that campaign, the organizations, the grassroots networks were already there. We didn't – our reporting didn't have to build or contribute to the building of those things. But because we knew that that enthusiasm, that energy was there, we were very willing to cover the remarks of the people who wanted to, let's go, let's act right now. And those who were thinking, well, we'll get to that maybe someday. Both kinds of comments were deemed newsworthy. And the fact that we were aware of that, it’s just part of that ecosystem that Briana referred to a moment ago. It contributes, we contribute, we didn't provide the information that sparked the organizing that had already happened, but we've contributed to it.

Alan Berks  

So it is kind of a chicken and egg question. I guess I'm wondering, and you may not have an answer for this. You know, are people pushing you as the media to cover an issue more? Or are you identifying where the people's energy is and covering it because you know that there's a lot of energy there? Or, or is there other considerations?

Lori Sturdevant  

I was an editorial writer. And my door was open. And I had a lot of visitors.

Alan Berks  

Would it be accurate to say that in a sense, you're being treated in some sense like the legislators are, you're being lobbied and you’re being, the people are trying to get your attention? 

Lori Sturdevant

There are days that I felt that way. But it wasn't just that spokespeople for special interests were trying to get my attention – the readers of the newspaper, or people who would hear me speak, when I would be speaking to rotary clubs or whatever, would also be trying to get my attention. In that respect, I think it is a bit like legislators, they, a lot of folks who are coming after them. And we would hear those voices, too. We're part of the ecosystem,

Alan Berks  

Have you seen a lot of change in the culture of the Capitol, from when you started to now, or from when you started to now?

Lori Sturdevant  

Well, I would say that over the years, the power of legislative leaders has increased, and to the diminution of the strength of some of the committee chairs and other legislators. It's more of a top down process, I think, than it used to be. It makes it a little less interesting to cover. And it makes the decision making at the end of sessions less transparent. Little more murky, what's really going into some of these decisions. That's a change I kind of lament.

Briana Bierschbach 

I would say, and I started after the 2010 Tea Party wave. So I mean, it was pretty polarized, then, but I would say that things have become more polarized. I think legislators from different parties talk to each other less, I think they have less in common with each other, they come from what they think are very different, completely different worlds. Urban and rural divides have certainly exacerbated that, and literally separated legislators, to different parts of the state, physical parts of the state where what they see every day are very different. And they come into the legislature almost sort of, on the defense of that way of life without fully understanding the other. And I think that that has made politics less cordial. People work together less, you find people crossing over and voting for each other's bills less, you just used to see that a lot more even 10 years ago than you do now.

Alan Berks  

And as people who are basically writing for the main publication, does that make your job impossible? People, nobody has a shared point of view,

Lori Sturdevant  

Not impossible. But as you try to understand and reflect those points of view, you have to be very intentional about that and work at that. And we do. And we do.

Briana Bierschbach  

It's, I would say it's really challenging because the places people are coming from are so different now, right? Like to put two opposing views in one story sometimes feels like, what planet are these two sides on? It makes this sort of contrast and the sort of we're putting both sides in our story and striving for really to not just put in both sides, but to reflect a diversity of perspectives, right? It's not just about this side or that side. It's about what do people really feel and what is sort of the underlying objective T truth if you can even possibly get to that - daily newspaper deadline! - but sometimes those two the two sides that you get in the course of a day to write a story, feel like, like, these two individuals, or these two perspectives are not even on the same, same planet. And that I think, you can feel that as a reader, you can feel it as a reporter. It makes it harder. I think it makes it harder to write stories that don't just feel like here's another story in America about how torn we all are. I think it's hard.

Alan Berks  

When we wrote the play, it was 2017 and Philando Castile had been shot. And that was something that had been mentioned by many people. And since then, obviously, other things have happened. And then George Floyd was murdered. Have you noticed in your experience that that has changed the culture of the Capitol at all?

Briana Bierschbach  

I mean, if you look at literally the people who are there, it's the most diverse legislature we've ever had. And a lot of people who are now elected officials came in through advocacy and grassroots organization around, you know, police violence, and, you know, things like that with movements that came out of incidents, and the death of Philando Castile and the death of Jamar Clark and the death of George Floyd. So you really are seeing that people who were involved in those movements, literally run for office and come to the Capitol, and then represent people who just hadn't been represented in the many, many years before when the Capitol was much more white and much more male. And I think that is the biggest - you see it in the policy proposals that are coming through too. I mean, I don't think the legislature would have had such a robust debate and passed any kind of police reform measures after George Floyd if the legislature hadn't been diversifying.

Lori Sturdevant  

Yeah, and we see. I think it's remarkable that we have as the House Republican leader, a woman from Greater Minnesota of mixed race. That's one of those breakthroughs that we should celebrate.Jerry Nelson taught me, one of the many things he taught me as we would sit there at the Senate table and shake our heads at some of the things that were being said on the Senate floor. And he would say they represent their districts. And that's really true. The attitudes about women, the attitudes about youth, the attitudes about race, are I think very much reflective of what's going on in Minnesota, and Minnesota has changed for the better, I would argue it with regard to women. And with regard to race. We've got a ways to go. But we have really made some significant social progress in the last half century.

Alan Berks  

So in the play, the parts that I asked you to listen to the first one was about, there's so much happening behind the scenes that you don't know about, right? And that is because that's what people told us, right? There's a story in there of going into a room, saying that they're going to negotiate and then not talking to each other and then coming out. And I would assume that you guys are aware of those games, right? There's another line in there, I think where someone says, one of the experts says, my boss and I joke with each other who's going to crack first and just say you don't care what I'm going to say, let's just get to the games. Where is the challenge for you guys in terms of covering that stuff, as opposed to what the legislators want to show? How does that work?

Lori Sturdevant 

Well, that was what I was alluding to a moment ago, when I said that there has been more power concentrated in the hands of the top leaders. And what we have had in recent years, is what I consider the sort of bad habit of many of the major decisions of the session being decided in the final days by a small number of people in the middle of the night, with rather poor ability to cover or file for all of us what's happened. It's possible to go back to something that is more open. And one of the things that we see this year, is earlier movement of major budget bills, so they will, they will at least have afforded themselves the time that's needed for open conference committee discussions. Will it happen?

Alan Berks  

So they're making it impossible for you to cover what's happening because of the timeline and? 

Lori Sturdevant  

At the time that you did the play 2016 - 15, 16, 17 - those were years of extreme difficulty covering what happened at the end of sessions, because of how tight that decision making group was, how little committee chairs and others would have input into those final decisions. It was difficult. And inevitably, when you have a small number of people making decisions, mistakes are made at the end. And you've spent the next several months chasing down what they did wrong.

Briana Bierschbach  

Yeah, we call that the tribunal. At the end of the last few sessions, which is just the top three leaders, the majority leaders in each party and the governor go into a room. And they bring in a cast of characters into the tribunal, who might make the case for this part of their health and human service services budget or this part of their education budget. And then they leave the tribunal. And they might come back later and find out that the thing they wanted they didn't get, and they'll leave mad. And they'll go into some committee and complain about it. And we have no idea what was said in there, we usually have to run around trying to find people to piece together deals that were completely made behind closed doors. It's extremely frustrating.

Lori Sturdevant  

And this is not the way it's supposed to happen, according to the civics books, or even really according to legislative rules to tell you the truth. The fact that conference committees and major committee chairs don't have the power that they used to is, I think a setback because those people for all their flaws – character flaws and otherwise – they really knew what they're talking about. They really knew their issues. And these top leaders maybe don't.

Alan Berks  

So is it going back? I heard, I think someone said, John Marty, pushed for something related to this?

Briana Bierschbach 

He wants to get rid of massive omnibus bills, which is Latin, I think literally, that means for everyone. It just means a big massive bill that lots of stuff is shoved into. And that's where you can get poison pills, so things that destroy a bill because enough people don't like it that the whole bill falls apart. Or you do log rolling, where you put a bunch of undesirable things into a bill with things that enough people want that they have to vote for it. And it's bad legislating in the sense that they usually get tucked in at the dead of night. And they usually, sometimes haven't had a hearing at any point in the session, almost no public vetting. And then suddenly they become at three in the morning, the law for the state of Minnesota or about to become law for the state of Minnesota. It's a problem and I think John Marty wants to fix it by having fewer omnibus bills or omnibus bills that are more tightly constrained to their subject matter. But it's hard. I think we're going to still see that happening. We're starting to see that now. It's how politics is done at the Capitol now is you put your positions, your strong points, in an omnibus bill and then you take it into negotiations with the other party. And even though Democrats run everything, they have differences in some of these big omnibus bills.

Lori Sturdevant 

This bad habit of putting these big bills together, this has been going on now – it's getting worse and worse with each succeeding session – but it's been a 20, 30 year process. Jack Davies has been, former State Senator Jack Davies has been complaining about this for years and saying that eventually the Supreme Court is going to strike down one of these big bills because it violates something called the single subject rule which is in the state constitution, but our courts have been reluctant to tell the legislature how to conduct its business. But John Marty is a reform minded guy. We’ll see what success he has. 

Alan Berks  

So these big omnibus bills make it impossible for you guys to cover it, it takes away the power from the committee chairs, who are experts in the subject, it's a bad thing. Why does it happen?

Briana Bierschbach  

Because it's easier to get a lot of stuff done quickly. And I think because you can, sometimes you have to rush things through because of negotiating and holding your chips. And suddenly you have to pass a bunch of things at once. And you're gonna sneak some things in there that maybe you want, but you don't necessarily want to have in the broad light of day.

Lori Sturdevant 

I think it's been a consequence of 30 plus years of divided government compromise at the end, which you have to have, if you're going to balance the state budget, you have to have, in divided government, each side giving a little bit. And neither side wanted to make real clear what kind of trades they were making. They didn't want to disappoint their bases by indicating very openly and publicly “Now we're backing away from this promise that we made in order to get the deal done.” And so deal making moves behind closed doors. And that's the legacy of this long, long period of divided government we've had in Minnesota.

Alan Berks

And that relates to what you were saying before about the people, they are afraid of the people coming and shouting at their door. So they're trying to find a way to avoid getting that kind of reaction.

Briana Bierschbach 

If they can pack up and go home before that happens…

Lori Sturdevant  

Legislative sessions do end by law have a certain date, and they will, they can get out of town.

Alan Berks

Is there a story that you wish you could have told, but you just weren't able to tell that story? It didn't fit into what your editor considered to be news, or you just couldn't figure out how to get enough information?

Briana Bierschbach 

Gosh, there's probably so many over the years. 

Lori Sturdevant 

I'm trying to think what would be a good one to tell,

Briana Bierschbach 

You know, I always would try to go back and retrace the steps or the lobbying or the things that we missed in some big bill that passed. Right. So I did that with the same sex marriage legalization bill, I did that with the Vikings bill, because that one kind of rose from the dead at one point in session. But you wish you could be in the room sometimes when these decisions are being made. So much of covering politics is about access, and we get such limited access. And the access that we do get is really contrived. And it's really, it's really stagey. It's almost like a play, you know, here are the characters who are going to relay this piece of information that I want you to have. And I often regret the things that we'll never get to see. And it's hard to even know what they are because we are limited in our access so much. That's there's probably so many things I don't even know.

Lori Sturdevant  

When I was kid with capital, a legislator who I respected said the purpose of state government is to set the table for the prosperity of the next generation. Well, it could also be for the less-than-prosperous next generation, depending upon the decisions that we make. And so what I think in response to your question, What didn't we cover? What could should what we what did we get our hands on like we should have? It's those things with the long term implications. We wouldn't cover much when they would nick the higher education funding year after year after year, and we'd have tuition increases that there are state systems schools year after year, we've covered a little bit, but it didn't give it the attention that we needed to until now we look and we see we've got some serious troubles in the quality of what's being offered at both our MNSCU system and our University of Minnesota. And that's just one example. I think the whole long term infrastructure issue we see in the city of St. Paul - the potholes. But that's the consequence of long term unwillingness to put the kind of money into infrastructure that these needs really require. We didn't do it, we still don’t, I don't think, do as good a job as we should with looking at the long term implications of the decisions we make. And yet I think that is state government's purpose to set the table for the next generation.

Alan Berks 

So in the interest of being pragmatic, is that a function of people not sort of forcing you guys to cover these issues? Or is it a function of it's just so hard on deadline every day just trying to keep track of what's going on so many different things, and you only have a limited access? So it's a function of the fact that the job is just hard and you make mistakes, or is it or is there a way in which the job could be better if people paid more attention or editors were different or

Briana Bierschbach

it's hard, sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees to use and I think you have to listen to people who are banging the drum saying, this is a problem, open your eyes. And I think people do come to the Capitol and say that there are just so many things going on at once. And we're often a Bureau of one or two, the Star Tribune, we're lucky to have a few people. And we get to sort of specialize in some areas. But that doesn't mean there aren't a million other hearings and bills. There are over 3000 bills introduced at the Capitol right now, we can't possibly know about every single one, or cover every single one. So sometimes it's just the abundance of information and stuff coming at you means bigger picture stories get lost.

Lori Sturdevant  

Journalists are mostly in the daily production business. “What have you got for tomorrow?” is what every editor asks you in the morning. And if we were to restructure our coverage a bit – I can say this as a retired person now – maybe designate some part of that reporting team to be looking for long term trends, stories. But those are expensive stories.

Alan Berks 

There's, there's an interesting idea that we we noticed when we did the interviews, and I actually think people are talking about it, I think I heard Jon Stewart talking about this, that the partisan divide isn't necessarily it as much conservative and liberal. It's people of good faith, and people of bad faith. And that's something I'm curious about them, I would I just want to ask sort of personally, like - you know, who's full of shit and who's not full of shit?

Briana Bierschbach  

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I have people I trust in both parties. And I trust them because they give me good information. And I guess that goes back to this idea that information is power. If you're a legislator who operates in good faith, or a lobbyist or someone who comes to the building, and gives good information to journalists, and to other legislators, you know you do have more power, because you're operating in good faith. I've talked to lobbyists too who have said, my only power is information and giving correct information. The second I give someone bad information, they won't trust me anymore, and they might not come to me. I might embarrass them, or they'll look foolish in a committee hearing. We know who is going to tell us something straight, and we know who's going to spin us and who's only going to spin us when we call them. So I do think that that is important. 

Lori Sturdevant  

Human beings are complicated, and that includes politicians. So sometimes the person that you're not quite sure you can trust is also the source of really valuable information. It's sometimes both. And that's why it's well to be there. And to get to know those folks in a rather in depth way, you're less likely to be snookered by some glib thing that you pick up. If you actually know the person, that person knows you're going to be back next week and next month and next year… and then to figure out a way to work around those things that you don't quite trust. Some of the things I quote, often still are pearls of wisdom from someone who otherwise I wouldn't trust for lots of other reasons, because human beings are complicated.

Alan Berks: 

We’ve been talking with journalists Briana Bierschbach and Lori Sturdevant. 

Leah Cooper:

They said so much that helps illuminate the complexity of their jobs, and everyone’s job at the Capitol. But there’s one unexpected thing I want to call out. When Briana draws a direct line between the protests that occurred after Philando Castille was killed by a police officer, and the diverse legislature we have today. People got activated and organized, and some of those people won “election certificates” and the ability to create new legislation. I think some of what we’ve seen in this last session is a direct result of these new, diverse legislators being there.

Alan Berks:

The part I want to pull out is Lori’s insight about how representatives really are representative–their biases and flaws and points of view are a microcosm for the state as a whole. I think there may be a philosophy that some activists have that if you can change the system, then you’ll change people. But, what if it’s true, that the system is simply a reflection of the people? Then you have to address the people, talk to people, connect with people, before you can change the system.

Leah Cooper:

In our next episode, we talk about the power of relationships at the Capitol with long-time lobbyist John Apitz.

John Apitz:

There's people out there that make me absolutely nuts. And there's people out there that I am absolutely in love with. And I treat them differently, obviously, but I don't respect any of them any of the less, for better or worse. In the end, it is a human enterprise. And we just have to be respectful in all of it, we've lost a bunch of that, but we just have to be respectful in all of it.

Alan Berks

We’ll also be joined by the former Executive Director of the Minnesota Council on Latino Affairs, Henry Jimenez

Henry Jimenez

I do believe that everybody should be at the Capitol – everybody should have a voice at the Capitol, everybody should feel like they can tell their legislator to represent them. And if they're not represented by their representative, then they need to be at the Capitol.

Leah Cooper

You’ve been listening to “Our House” - I’m Leah Cooper

Alan Berks

And I’m Alan Berks - “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by myself and Becky Dale. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play and the original cast, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g

Leah Cooper

 Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible. 

Alan Berks

Thanks for listening!